Talk:Abbas the Great

?

- While reading this page I wondered why would

- Portuguese traders seize the island of Hormoz. - - Should it not be Portuguese colonialist seized the island of Hormoz and Shah Abbas I send them a warning to leave or else, and apparently the " else " was, they were thrown in to the water full of sharks.

Copied stuff

the entire paragraph here: In 1609-1610, a long battle broke out between Kurds and Safavid Empire. It took place around a fortress called "Dimdim" located in Beradost region around Lake Urmia in north western Iran. In 1609, the ruined structure was rebuilt by "Emîr Xan Lepzêrîn" (Golden Hand Khan), ruler of Beradost, who sought to maintain the independence of his expanding principality in the face of both Ottoman and Safavid penetration into the region. Rebuilding of Dimdim was considered a move toward independence that could threaten Safavid power in the northwest. Many Kurds, including the rulers of Mukriyan (Mahabad), rallied around Amir Khan. After a long and bloody siege led by the Safavid grand vizier Hatem Beg, which lasted from November 1609 to the summer of 1610, Dimdim was captured. All the defenders were massacred. Shah Abbas ordered a general massacre in Beradost and Mukriyan(Mahabad) (Reported by Eskandar Beg Monshi, Safavid Historian (1557-1642) in the Book "Alam Ara Abbasi") and resettled the Turkish Afshar tribe in the region while deporting many Kurdish tribes to Khorasan. (see [1] and [2]). Also see " O. Dzh. Dzhalilov, Kurdski geroicheski epos Zlatoruki Khan" (The Kurdish heroic epic Gold-hand Khan), Moscow, 1967.

Is copied from here. It should be removed.

Ori Redler 02:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Title

This is a horrible title. "of Safavid"? What the hell is that? This article should be at Abbas the Great or Abbas I of Persia or Abbas I (Safavid). "Safavid" is the name of a dynasty. You don't say Louis VII of Capetian or Yazid II of Umayyad. john k 12:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Shahsavan

A very interesting page, thanks to all who collaborated to it. Please consider incorporating info as far as the Shahsavans who eventually become, if not the most, among the most powerful military units of Shah Abbas and served him in many battles. Please don't censure them because of their Turkic origin.

Qezelbaas 18:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Viaggi di Pietro Della Valle il pellegrino, descritti da lui medesimo in lettere familiari all'erudito suo amico Mario Schipano, divisi in tre parti cioè: la Turchia, la Persia e l'India. Colla vita e ritratto dell'autore, Torino, 1843. Shah Abbas also attached importance to Azerbaijani Turkish, and it was mandatory and necessary to speak Turkish (Azerbaijani) in the palace. Pietro Della Valle wrote in a letter dated May 1618: "The Shah asked me if I knew Turkish, and then he said to me, 'Welcome, it's time.' asked. I briefed on my situation " AzərbaycanTürküAze (talk) 07:19, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

family

very good article, however, who is his mother? i heard she played a crucial role in him assending the throne.

Indeed very informative but Shah Abbas being of Qizilbash (literal translation in Turkish will be Red-Haired) Tribe is a Turk himself. What was his rationale to go after the Turkish Ottomans? Some clues are offered in the form of Robert Shirley's reform in the "Persian" army!!

The book about remaking of the Middle East " A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East " offers a lot of explanation about the British role in the demise of the Ottoman rule. However the initial attack on the Ottomans from the East started with the British arming Shah Abbas in the 1600's. The problem British and Shah Abbas faced was how to get two Turkish countries engange in warfare. This problem was resolved by introducing the Shia/Sunni in-fighting in to the equation and fight was along the religous lines rather than ethnic. One final note, Iran was rule by Turkish tribes from the time of Mahmood of Gazne to Qajar's, yet these tribes respected the Persian culture and adopted it to some extent in their courts. However Western Historians have not paid attention to this very important fact that the country has been under Turkish rule beyond the Arab invasion till early 1906. Another bit of data: Current Supreme Leader Mr. Khamanei is also a Turk himself! Consult http://www.theestimate.com/public/082500.html (Excerpted here):

Sayyid ‘Ali Khamene’i was born in the holy city of Mashhad in northeastern Iran on July 15, 1939. Though he and his parents were from Mashhad, the family has roots in Azerbaijan in northwestern Iran, and Khamene’i is understood to speak Azeri Turkish as well as Farsi. Khamene’i’s grandfather, Sayyid Hossein, was a prominent cleric in Azerbaijan, in Khyaban and Tabriz, and later migrated to the holy city of Najaf in Iraq.

Khamane’i is a sayyid, a descendant of the Prophet, and also the scion of a clerical family; his father Jawad Khamene’i was a hojatolislam, who lived until the age of 93 and, after the revolution, was accorded the title of ayatollah. His mother was the daughter of another hojatolislam; an aunt was married to Sheikh Muhammad Khyabani, a cleric who died leading a revolt in Azerbaijan and is considered a martyr by the revolutionary generation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.127.174 (talk) 04:35, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Georgian mother?

Any evidence Mahd-i Ulya was Georgian? The reference given didn't make any sense. She isn't mentioned among the Georgian wives here [1]. Plus, her father claimed descent from the Fourth Shia Imam. AFAIK that would be unusual for a Georgian. --Folantin (talk) 11:08, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It would be in accordance with the name of this media "ENCYCLOPEDIA" if you read more before editing. I mention one example. 1. Mahde Ulya is a title not a name. 2. Iranica+ the sources I have given mention the correct name "khairo nesaa begom". 3. Do not remove sourced materials.--Xashaiar (talk) 11:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

The title by which she is best known. Or are you saying Roger Savory knows nothing about the Safavids?--Folantin (talk) 11:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Dear Folantin, there were Georgian Muslims and coverts. Besides, claiming descent from X and Y was through father was common in those times, and does not necessarily contradict the fact that Abbas' mother was Georgian. There are numerous sources that mention the Georgian mother. --Kurdo777 (talk) 11:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, so cite some of them. Andrew J. Newman, Safavid Iran: rebirth of a Persian empire, Published by I.B.Tauris, 2006, ISBN 1860646670, p. 42 doesn't mention she was Georgian - it says she was of the Mazandarani Marashi sayyids. --Folantin (talk) 11:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

1. She was non-Qizilbash+Georgian (or Circassian) (according to 2 sources I gave). 2. The sources we have do not make the later precise. 3. But according to Iranica article on Georgians, we know "princess in that period were mostly Georgian". 3. The claim to Imams should be removed.--Xashaiar (talk) 12:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

The claim to the Imam should be removed? Any particular reason why? Isn't that the sort of claim sayyids tend to make? --Folantin (talk) 12:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Hang on, neither of your references back your claim she was Georgian. I've already dealt with Newman. Women in Iran from the Rise of Islam to 1800 p.153 [2] p.153 does not say she was Georgian. It says she was Mazandarani. --Folantin (talk) 13:07, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

1. Page 30 of The fire, the star and the crossby Aptin Khanbaghi 2. Page 91 of The Khedive's Egypt: Or, The Old House of Bondage Under New Masters by by Edwin De Leon. I have several non-English sources too. --Kurdo777 (talk) 12:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll get back to you on them. As it is, neither of the references just added to the article support the claim that she was Georgian, so these might come in handy. --Folantin (talk) 13:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

First reference says she was a "Caucasian Christian". This source (which Xashaiar used incorrectly) says she was the daughter of Mir Abdullah Khan II of Mazandaran [3]. --Folantin (talk) 14:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It certainly contradits it (also contradicts Savory's book [4]). Savory is a well-known expert on the Safaid history. To contradict him, several reliable sources (as reliable as Savory) should be cited. Alefbe (talk) 15:35, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It's possible there has been some confusion between Abbas' father, Muhammad Khudabanda, and Abbas' grandfather Tahmasp I. Now Tahmasp certainly had several Georgian or Circassian wives, as Savory says [5]. --Folantin (talk) 15:46, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Many governors were Muslim Georgians and Circassians. There are many sources for that. I do not know about this particular governor, but he canould be (partially) Georgian too. I have read many sources where the claim was made that Shah Abbas's mother, some say Grandmather (too) was/were Georgian. A Persian online source mentioned that Shah Abbas spoke fluently Georgian. I have not these sources at my disposal at these sound very obvious to me and would never know that anyone has the need to question these. I will try to find more sources but at this moment I am really busy--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I've seen sources saying that Abbas could speak Georgian too, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was his mother's tongue. After all, he had large numbers of (Muslim) Georgian soldiers under his command. But there's definitely a discrepancy between the claim that Mahd-i Ulya was the daughter of Mir Abdullah Khan of Mazandaran, who alleged descent from the Fourth Imam, and the claim she was a "Caucasian Christian". --Folantin (talk) 12:22, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

from the other article: "Downfall

Angered by the queen's actions, the Qizilbash sent a petition to the shah asking him to remove her from power or face revolts. The shah considered sending her into exile but Khayr al-Nisa refused to concede to their demands. Finally, a group of Qizilbash conspirators accused the queen of having a love affair with Adil Giray, brother of the Crimean Tatar Khan, who was being held captive at the Safavid court. They burst into the harem and strangled her and her mother on 26 July 1579.[8][9]" The fact that Shah Abbas wanted to exile Khayr-al Nisa and let her be killed or at least did not much after she was killed, are other indications that She was not his mother. Also the attitude of Shah Abbas to Mohammad Khodabandeh is such an indication that he was not his father. Pari Khanum and Ismail Mirza (Ismail) II were Crcassians. Pari Khanum played an important role in killing of the crowan Prince Georgian Heydar Mirza! Alamaraye Abbasi reports about that --Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Eh? It was Mohammad Khodabanda (Khayr al-Nisa's husband) who considered having her exiled (to save her life) then did nothing against the Qizilbash who killed her (he was a very weak ruler). Abbas was all of eight years old at the time of his mother's death. One of the first things he did when he took the throne was to punish his mother's killers. --Folantin (talk) 09:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any citations from Shah Abbas I that Khayr-Al nisa was his mother. Shah Abbas was at odd with Qizilbash also for other reasons. Also what would be the explanations that Shah Abbas spoke Georgian? Georgian is typically a language which should be learnt young. Also there are no mentions of Shah Abbas having Circassian blood, so it seems unprobable that Mohammad Khoda Bande was his father.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

What? Savory, Newman and Nahavandi and Bomati all say Khayr al-Nisa was Abbas' mother. There is no doubt about this. She was Mazandarani, not Georgian. Abbas spoke Persian, Turkic and Georgian - he needed Georgian because it was the language of his new army (according to Nahavandi and Bomati). And nobody doubts that Mohammed Khodabanda was Abbas' father. What's "Circassian blood" got to do with this? Mohammed Khodabanda's mother was Turcoman. --Folantin (talk) 09:39, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

It is not possible that he spoke Georgian because of his soldiers. he should have leart it from childhood. A Mazandarani can be a Georgian and can be a Seyed. It seems conflicting but anyone who knows Iran might see that this is possible in Iran. In addition people can be of mixed blood. But aside from that yes I doubt that khayr-Al Nisa was his mother. With all due respect to those sources you mentioned though. Savory in particular does not speak nicely about the Georgian element in Iran. Orientalists have always some tendencies to speak about the exotic Islamic peoples rather than Georgians, Circassians etc... who they see as inferiors They even do not regard Islamized Georgians, Armenians as such! But any way. But Ok. As I said Alamara says that Parikhan khanum and Ismail II were of Circassian mother, and in wikipedia says that Ismail II was Khodabande's brother. So He cannot be of a Turcoman mother, if by brother is meant ful-blood brother. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:53, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, you can doubt all you like but that's what the scholarly sources say. Wikipedia is here to report on those not promote your particular brand of ethnic chauvinism. I'm sick of all the race obsessives monopolising the Safavid articles. (As for Ismail II and Mohammed Khodabanda, on p.68 Savory says: "Of Tahmasp's nine sons who reached adolescence, seven were the sons of Circassian or Georgian mothers; only two were the sons of a Turcoman mother: Muhammad Khudabanda and Ismail.") --Folantin (talk) 10:18, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I do not see honestly any ethnic chauvinism in this. And it seems that Savory's claims are in conflict with the primary sources such as Alamara. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:42, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Um, we are supposed to use secondary sources by experts. Savory is an expert on the Safavids. But of course you desperately want Shah Abbas' mother to have been a Georgian and that's all that counts. Anything that supports your view is good, anything that doesn't must be rejected. --Folantin (talk) 11:47, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

No not that, but I have more problems with Savory, also about other issues. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Savory is a leading scholar of Safavids, so no questions about his reliability. After looking further into the facts surrounding Shah Abbas' mother, I do not believe she was a full Georgian. Although, given that some sources do call her Georgian, I am starting to believe that it's possible that she may have been half-Georgian or the daughter of a Georgian lady. However, unless there is a a reliable secondary source that explicitly supports the Georgian connection, it should not be added to the article. --Kurdo777 (talk) 04:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

If a source is not conform the primary sources, then its reliability should be doubted. If Wikipedia relies on secondary sources, then also those secondary sources should be respected which call her a Georgian. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Um, no. The most reliable and up-to-date secondary sources I've read mention nothing about Khayr al-Nisa being Georgian. They simply say she was from the ruling family of Mazandaran, who were Marashi sayyids. That's it. One of Abbas' wives was Georgian, but his mother was Mazandari. That's what we write. --Folantin (talk) 08:28, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I know what most of these orientalists say. A Question to you. Do you think that Shah Safi was Shah Abbas's son or his grandson?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:49, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

"Orientalists" = anyone who disagrees with you, including Nahavandi and Bomati (very Western names those). What has your question got to do with anything? Shah Safi was Abbas' grandson, per Savory, Newman, Nahavandi/Bomati and The Cambridge History of Iran.--Folantin (talk) 08:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

No, not everyone who disagrees with me is an orientalist. But many Orientalists make up things. Did you know that some Georgian sources say that Shah Safi was Shah Abbas's son? --Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, that just proves how unreliable they can be. The five most cogent and up-to-date reliable sources I've used (Savory, The Cambridge History of Iran, Nahavandi and Bomati's full-length biography, Newman's Safavid Iran, and Women in Iran: From the Rise of Islam to 1800 edited by Guity Nashat and Lois Beck) say Abbas' mother was Khayr al-Nisa Begum and she came from the Mazandarani nobility. Women in Iran specifically calls her "of Iranian Mazandarani origin" (pp.160-61). End of story. --Folantin (talk) 11:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

In Mazandaran there are plenty of georgians. They see themselves now as Mazandarani people, but many still know they are Georgians. It is sure that Shah Abbas had a Georgian grandmother from Shalikashvili family. One has two granmothers. And I do not know why the primary Georgian and Persian sources of the 17th century should be less reliable than these secondary sources you bring. It seems that you are obsessed with ethnicity. Otherwise you did not say that his mother was Turcoman, knowing that everyone has two grandmothers.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm obsessed with ethnicity? LOL That's the funniest thing I've ever heard on Wikipedia. You might want to take the beam out of your own eye first given your primary interest in this article is adding Abbas to the category "Iranian Georgians" whatever the cost to encyclopaedic accuracy. --Folantin (talk) 11:47, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes you are obsessed with ethnicty and general intolerant of primary sources.I in cotrast want to reflect the true share of different ethnic groups in the Iranian history--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:56, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

No you don't - you want the greatest figure in Safavid history to be an "Iranian Georgian" just like you and you will do anything to make the facts fit your POV. I don't come from the region and I don't care what ethnicity anybody was. I simply look at reliable secondary sources and report what I find. "Intolerant of primary sources"? LOL That's Wikipedia policy - if you don't like it, start your own encyclopaedia.--Folantin (talk) 12:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I, Iranian Georgian? Why? because I edit those pages? I also edit pages on persians, Azeris, Qashqais etc... does it make one of those ethnicities? Anyway... What I am doing is to correct the biases of decades long of misinformation by using primary sources. May be you say Wikipedia is not the right place for it. Be it like that but those secondary sources contain too much mistakes and biases.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:30, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Sure, five reliable secondary sources say the same thing about Abbas' mother but you're the big expert who's going to prove them wrong. Enough already. If you start using primary sources to push your point of view I will report you. --Folantin (talk) 12:39, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

you can report me if you want. But I remind you if I bring Alamra published recently and edited by someone wont be considered as primary anymore. But its waste of time as you will revert that anyway.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources". That's policy. Five modern, reliable sources are unlikely to be mistaken. --Folantin (talk) 13:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

They are if they are based on each other. One can cite 10 sources which are all influenced by each other. Two secondary sources count which do not rely on each other but rely indepently on a primary source. But anyway as I said I do not want to waste more time on this, because you are going to revert it even if I bring 100 sources and unfortunately most oher editors won't support me because the 17th century history is not on their priority list.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah sure. But I'm glad you're not planning to waste any more of my time. Abbas certainly murdered a Georgian queen but he didn't have one as his mother. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 14:01, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes it was ketevan. Georgians at his court, however, were involved in this murder. The same way Imam Quli khan Undalidze was murdered by georgians. It will be appreciate more and it is better for quality of your edits in Wikipedia if you do not talk in this arrogant way however. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

So instead of spending hours and hours finding reliable sources and completely overhauling this article so it is far, far more informative than it was a fortnight ago, then referencing it thoroughly (it's gone up from 3 inline citations to 53), I should copy you, eh? Your humility, willingness to admit mistakes and lack of bias are a shining example for all Wikipedians. --Folantin (talk) 14:20, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

No one said that you do not have historical knowledge. But you only bring in your own sources and all other (notably primary sources) are wrong according to you--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:30, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

"My own sources"? What are you gibbering on about? Those are the best modern, secondary sources available. But obviously they must be wrong because they don't back your fantasy of Shah Abbas being an "Iranian Georgian" and you will dust down any old sources you can find to make that point. Do you have some problem understanding Wikipedia policy?--Folantin (talk) 14:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I do not know how valuable are sources by authors who have never been to the field. This is why Hutchinson in Iranica says that Iranian georgians are Christians. Nowadays ethnolgists is laughing at his blunder and it certainly does no good to his Anglo-Saxon ego--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

What? What are you on about? What has going to a field got to do with Shah Abbas' mother? --Folantin (talk) 14:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I was talking about the Anglo_saxon gentlemen who have contrivuted to Encyclopedia Iranica. They even contradict their own publications!--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:16, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Is there a point to all your red herrings or do you have some solid evidence to contradict five reliable sources? (And I don't mean nationalist stuff - some people even used to believe Nader Shah was Irish). --Folantin (talk) 15:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I already said which source and I am waiting for a Georgian source. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:37, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

...right, so you are planning to engage in original research. And Georgian sources are obviously not going to be at all biased, are they? --Folantin (talk) 15:39, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

All I can say is that Georgian sources are definitly not proud of Shah Abbas and all other Safavid Muslim Georgians.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:16, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

@Folantin: Do you have sources about Shah Abbass speaking Georgian language? Did he really knew the language? Jaqeli (talk) 12:45, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Here is a secondary source on the matter, albeit very brief. Rayfield (2013) states "Abbas had a Georgian mother" on page 189. 2600:6C50:47F:E30C:E589:C26A:9037:E70D (talk) 09:20, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Modern Azerbaijani name

Is "I Şah Abbas Səfəvi" modern Azerbaijani ? Does it have historical importance ? If modern Azerbaijani, we have to remove it. Wikipedia is not a dictionaly. We can see it in az:I Şah Abbas Səfəvi easily. Takabeg (talk) 10:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

You're right. There is no need for a proliferation of names in the first line and certainly not in a very modern script. There might be some excuse for putting his name in Turkic (in Arabic script), since that was a Safavid court language alongside Persian, but AFAIK it would look pretty similar to the Persian version anyway. --Folantin (talk) 10:36, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Mer30. Takabeg (talk) 12:48, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Here the double agenda of Takabeg is clearly seen again, he writes that wikipedia is not a dictionary and removes the azerbaijani name but he insists on putting a Persian name to the article of the Ottoman Turkish Sultan Osman I, if wikipedia is not a dictionary and there is no room for any different language than Persian in this article, than logically there is also no reason to add a persian name for Osman I which has nothing to do with Iran, Persia or Persian history. but still Takabeg removes everywhere Turkic languages and categories but adds Persian in the same Turkic articles. Is this normal?DragonTiger23 (talk) 13:44, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

What ? I removed alternative names only with modern languages, especially it has interwiki in other languages. And I continue to remove them. Takabeg (talk) 23:44, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Images from greatestbattles.iblogger.org

iblogger.org is on the blacklist[6] so images from it should not be used. See also the whitelist discussion|[7]

Graeme374 (talk) 04:35, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

There's no evidence this picture has any relevance to this article anyway. Shah Jahan is too late in the day and is not even mentioned here. --Folantin (talk) 19:40, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Yerevan

Yerevan in those days was not a capital of Armenia. The majority of the population were azerbaijani turks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.61.5.221 (talk) 14:30, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

No they were not, take a look here: Yerevan was inhabited first by Armenians and remained homogeneous until the 15th century.[38][39][47] The population of the Erivan Fortress, founded in the 1580s, was mainly composed of Muslim soldiers of the khan, estimated 2-3 thousand.[38] The city itself was mainly populated by Armenians. French traveler Jean-Baptiste Tavernier, who visited Yerevan possibly up to six times between 1631 and 1668, states that the city is exclusively populated by Armenians.[48] During the 1720's Ottoman–Persian War its absolute majority were Armenians.[39] - Yerevan --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Abbas spoke Georgian?

Hi there, I've heard and just read above that Abbas spoke Georgian? Do anyone have any sources about it? And how did he speak the language? Was he a partly Georgian in any way? Jaqeli (talk) 20:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Well his mother was from the Marashi family of Mazandaran, while his father was Mohammad Khodabanda, the son of Tahmasp I and a Turkman. While Tahmasp I was the son of Ismail I and a Turkman. Thus Abbas did not have Georgian origins (unlike some other Safavid princes/rulers). I highly doubt that he and any other Safavid prince/ruler spoke Georgian. --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 10:21, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

What about Abass's wives? Why aren't they added in the family sections but only the children are there? And also do you happen to know where exactly is Abbass's grave in Irann? Jaqeli (talk) 12:42, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Jaqeli, I would like to add to this old question of yours that "Mazandarani's" are not really a distinct ethnicity. They live in Northern Iran, their language shares typological features with certain Caucasian languages, and large amounts of Georgians were settled there from the earliest days. His mother was from Mazadaran, but that doesn't rule out she was partly Georgian, or Circassian, etc. I think I read one authors claim once that Abbas' moths was Georgian, but this wasn't backed up by anyone else, including the most noted authors on behalf of the Safavids, such as Rudi Matthee, Willem Floor, etc. if you want I can give you a link to that book though if you want. - LouisAragon (talk) 00:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

- I don't know why, my knowledge about the Safavid dynasty isn't the best.

- His tomb is in Kashan. --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 13:46, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Where exactly in Kashan? There is some mosque where his tomb is or a mausoleum or where exactly is his tomb? Jaqeli (talk) 18:03, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea. Why is it so important? --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 18:18, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Is it open for tourists to visit? Jaqeli (talk) 19:47, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Probably; i just found this picture [8] --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 20:23, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Now that's perfect. Thanks. Jaqeli (talk) 20:28, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

According to the recent biography of Shah Abbas by David Blow, the Spanish envoy Figueroa heard Abbas speaking Georgian so he could make jokes about the Ottoman ambassador without his understanding what was being said. Blow speculates that Abbas must have picked up his knowledge of the language from his Georgian ghulam soldiers or his concubines (reference: Blow, p.118). Abbas' mother was not Georgian. His successor, Shah Safi, had a Georgian mother though. --Folantin (talk) 11:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Folantin: Thanks a lot. Do you know by chance when Abbas was dying did he really say something about Georgia or Georgians or maybe he wrote anything in his will or something? Jaqeli 12:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

No idea, sorry. --Folantin (talk) 09:10, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Tinatin

Is there any good Persian sources about Tinatin, daughter of George X of Kartli? I am trying to find some Georgian sources but Persian sources would be also great as she was married to Abbas I. Jaqeli 17:51, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 18 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 07:58, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

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Abbas I of Persia → Abbas the Great – Jstor search: "Abbas+I+Persia" gets 5 hits, "Abbas+Great+Persia" gets 3,864. - LouisAragon (talk) 11:22, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

• Support per LouisAragon. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:48, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support Greatest king of the Safavid dynasty and per Louis Aragon.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 11:30, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lead image

User:HistoryofIran has insisted on reverting to the horrible Italian "artist's impression" based on no evidence of Abbas's appearance (and a low quality image to boot). The Persian miniature at this period just didn't do portraits, or was only starting to, but the Mughal miniature did, and fortunately Jahangir sent one of his top portraitists, Bishandas to Persia with an embassy, where he stayed for 7 years. The Mughal court was therefore well supplied with genuine likenesses, no doubt including many drawings, and there are a number of high-quality Mughal images which show Abbas' rather distinctive appearance. This is totally different from the various invented European images, which just show a generalized Oriental, and also the crude later Persian images. There are only a few Persian images that are more or less compatible with the Mughal ones, in particular: Abbas being served wine (attributed Muhammad Qasim), Abbas with a bow and page (not top-quality), and the probably much later Čehel Sotūn wall painting, followed by many lesser Persian paintings, which cannot date from before 1647, and which Iranica refrains from giving a date to, while noting the European influence. Perhaps it comes from after the fire in 1706.

As with other rulers, there are indeed many images of Abbas, but very few are close to real likenesses based on drawings made in front of the subject. I can't work out why HistoryofIran insists on keeping an image that is just about the least attractive and the least artisticly competent, which is certainly not based on any actual likeness, and is a low-quality file from an unknown internet source. Do any RS on Abbas reproduce this ghastly daub? I am not especially attached to the image I used, though it may well be by Bisandas himself, and was a ready-made crop, but we should crop one of the other images, as usual looking for a balance between authenticity and aesthetics, and an image of decent picture quality. The ugly and badly-drawn Italian daub fails badly on all these and is just unacceptable.

The other images clearly haven't been looked at for several years and show a preference for crappy lo-res Western prints over more authentic Asian images that needs to change.

I'll put some uncropped alternatives below.

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  Abu'l Hasan Jahangir Welcoming Shah 'Abbas, ca. 1618, Freer Gallery of Art, Washington DC, Mughal
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  crop of last
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  Allegorical representation of Emperor Jahangir and Shah Abbas, c. 1618 - not the best pose.
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  Attributed to Bishandas, when in Persia, but lo-res
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  Detail of the one attributed to Muhammad Qasim, lo-res & muddy (the original isn't like this)
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  Persian, c. 1632
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  Čehel Sotūn wall painting, a court product, but probably much later. Rather lo-res image
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  Unknown, supposedly Italian, artist & date (18th-century?). Very lo-res
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  A big improvement on the last

Johnbod (talk) 16:14, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I've reverted you because the picture you added wasn't an improvement, that wasn't so hard to work out now was it? Not that I already said it earlier [9]. Also, the "ghastly" Italian picture has been the longstanding picture for quite some time now. You even went as far to leave the infobox pictureless [10]. Mind you, you don't own the article. I wouldn't be against using a cropped variant of the first picture, but the picture you insist on adding is almost missing half his face and looks kind of bizarre, pretty "ghastly" if you ask me. EDIT: Also, it literally says on the description of the Italian picture that it is from the 16-17th century, yet you somehow worked it out to be possibly from the 18th-century..? --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:27, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Well obviously I'm convinced it would be a considerable improvement, mainly because we know he actually looked like that, which is the main purpose of portraits in articles. Equally, we know he didn't look like the Italian portrait. It clearly isn't 16th century from its style - almost certainly after 1650. It looks like an 18th century Italian painting to me. Vast number of Commons descriptions and especially dates are completely wrong, in fact the majority when they aren't sourced to museums etc., and no reliance at all should be placed on them. This was sourced to somebody's webside, where it doesn't now seem to appear. You have some nerve telling me "you don't own the article" - I don't think I've ever edited it before. Obviously that applies far better to you! Johnbod (talk) 18:07, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I have some nerve for restoring the long-standing picture which was suddenly removed because you didn't like it, my bad. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:28, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

No, as I said, the nerve was complaining about WP:OWN. If you had much experience of images in articles, which it is becoming increasingly clear you don't, you'd know that "long-standing" is a very weak argument on wp - it tends to mean "added in 2006 when it was the only option we had, and nobody has bothered to look for a better one since". Johnbod (talk) 18:39, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

That's the thing, no better picture has been added. For some reason you insist on adding a picture of a person whose almost missing half his face, yet you keep calling the Italian portrait (although low-res, is quite detailed) for "ghastly". Clearly this "experience of images" doesn't seem to do much of a difference here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:50, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I've given the reasons, but since you don't seem to understand them, I'll do so again. The "Italian" painting has an "off the internet" source, and clearly does not show the same person as the known authentic images. It's a very ugly and poor quality work by an incompetent painter (ok, personal opinion, but an informed one), though there is "detail". Such images abound in the storerooms of museums and small auction rooms. They are what happened when a European collector wanted a portrait of some exotic person & the artist had nothing to go on. The claim it represents Abbas was more than likely added by a dealer far later, as used to happen all the time. I have offered a range of authentic alternatives, such as RS use to illustrate their books, which can be cropped, but which you have not commented on. By definition an image that verifiably represents the named subject, at a minimum based on other images such as drawings done with the live subject in fron of the artist is preferable to an image using some other person as a model, or just made up. Johnbod (talk) 19:08, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes and I understood them (however, they seem to be mainly based off your own personal opinion/interpretation), and I'll repeat myself again: the picture you insisted previously on adding is not better, and there are far better ones out there, such as one I did actually comment on; the first picture (perhaps a bit less cropped than the second image? so we can see his body, like how the Mughal emperors are shown in Wikipedia). --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:19, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I also don't like the Mughal one (one eye blurred out?). The resolution of the Italian painting is indeed rather low, but I still prefer it over any of the other listed options. LouisAragon (talk) 17:02, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Amazing. Why? Johnbod (talk) 18:07, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

You two need to relax. Ermia.r.a (talk) 17:40, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

This was a week ago, dude - don't stir the pot! Johnbod (talk) 17:54, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Lead image p2

I think its best if the lead image was an Iranian product following the algorithm for the Safavid king (well, Ismail I and Soltan Hoseyn being exceptions), unfortunatly, there doesn't seem to be a good quality Safavid painting of Abbas. I myself would be content to this one:

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And also this version of the Chehel Sotoun painting: (Not the one I posted)

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Any thought? Amir Ghandi (talk) 12:22, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Imho they're not an improvement over the Italian one. There is another image, though I'm not quite sure about it, what do you think? [11]? --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:02, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, except his weird hands, everything seems to be in accordance to his physical appearances. Though, it would be prefect if the hands were cut out. Amir Ghandi (talk) 13:12, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

For all of Abbas' significance in Iranian history, I have to say all native drawings we have of him at hand don't look that well (perhaps bar this one[12]). The many Mughal drawings are no better IMO. Reiterating what I said last time: I still think the Italian drawing is probably the most aesthetic one we have at the moment. PS: Yeah I'm well aware that phrases/terms such as "don't look that well" and "aesthetic", within this regard, denote completely subjective opinions. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

If we really wanna go with an Iranian drawing, I'd vote for the one which Amir Ghandi and I linked.[13] - LouisAragon (talk) 22:39, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Whatever we have, it shouldn't be the appalling Italian one there now, done by an artist who had never been within a thousand miles of Iran! The Freer one (or the crop of it in the section above) are both the best artistically, and probably the only ones dating from his lifetime, and possibly one he actually posed for. And NONE of these are "drawings", please guys! Johnbod (talk) 00:05, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for intruding, just providing my thoughts on this. I do think either of Amir Ghandi's provided image above and HistoryofIran's link to [11] is better than the lead image of the Italian artist now. Likeness is preferable imo, even if we're using Persian miniatures Danial Bass (talk) 00:44, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

@LouisAragon: I accept that quality-wise the two paintings are not an improvement to the Italian one, but still, a Persian painting, (even one dated a generation after his death) is more legitimated regarding his appearance than a European impression; in the Mughal one he does seem purposefully badly painted. Either way, until we find a better painting, I'd vote for [14] or the Mughal one if his hands were cut out. Amir Ghandi (talk) 01:03, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with LouisAragon, the others are not an improvement. The current one should be kept. Not using an image because of nationalistic reasons is strange. If we're talking about Persian qualities and such, how this painting is not Persian or whatever, then that opens up arguments as to how Persian the subject himself was in the first place, considering his ethnic background and that of the Safavid clan in general. How are the Persian or Mughal miniatures more accurate or reflective of the subject anyway, since the style of such art imposes East Asian features and it is highly unlikely the Safavid shahs looked even remotely East Asian as their clan was indigenous to the Caucasus from where they originated. Anyway, these kinds of arguments have no place in encyclopedia articles. It should come down to a matter of aesthetics. To my eyes, the current one looks better than the alternatives. Laval (talk) 12:31, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Apparently, people keep changing his death date.

Hello, uh people keep changing the death date of to 1666? Micheal Paleologo-Oriundi (talk) 14:51, 19 May 2024 (UTC)