Talk:United States Military/Archive 1

Source?

Military manpower - availability: males age 15-49: 70,502,691 (2000 est.)

Military manpower - fit for military service: males age 15-49: 2,056,762 (2000 est.)

Where did this come from? I doubt that only 2.85% of the 15-49 population is fit for military service. Somewhere on the order of 80 - 90% would be more like it. When I have seen stats like these used, it is in order to give an idea of what the nation could conceivably be capable of, if worse came to worse. Possibly this is meant as a guide to how many could be diverted from the civilian economy without causing serius problems? Dobbs 14:53 Sep 26, 2002 (UTC)

Originally it came from the CIA factbook but I don't know how they derive the numbers. They do seem odd, don't they? --rmhermen

Found it. World Factbook lists fit for military service as N/A. Reaching military age annually is 2,039,414 (2001 est.) - that's what it is, I'll change it. Dobbs 15:51 Sep 26, 2002 (UTC)

Broken link

I tried to access the 8th source(the link for the pdf file Base Structure Report) but it seems to be broken. Could someone fix this problem, please?

Formatting

Is 'United States Armed Forces' a proper noun? The capitalization on the phrasing is irregular within the article. The term 'armed forces,' referring generically to a group of military branches, is certainly not. A quick survey of whitehouse.gov press releases (e.g. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html) indicates that the phrase probably should be capitalized when it refers specifically to the Armed Forces of the United States, and I have changed the lowercase usages accordingly. Tofof 15:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Criticism

Why isn't there a Criticism section, certainly there should be one. Hempeater 20:37, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

i agree with you, actually i just came to this page searching for the criticism after i read the budget list, i mean, does anyone questions WHY do the USA spends SO MUCH on military? USA haven't been in a major war (a war supposed to actually be a danger to the country) since, let's say...WWII! setting aside the civil war and the american revolutian USA just go around fighting other people's war, then why do they keep spending ALL THIS MONEY on military? you guys have to make a criticism section, and dont forget to include conspiracy theories of world domination and israel's protector. and oh jeez i almost forgot, mentioning also the high budget but the difficults to fight poor iraqis and etc (the state has everything it could have to win any war anywhere in 24 hours but can't handle 3rd countries with old guns and techniques, fighting only with passion and/or hate)

US spends a lot because the US has a lot of money. The US spends less than 25 other countries in terms of GDP dollar and US spending is lower than it has been historically. If you want tips on how to insert your POV into the article, check out my user page. Daniel Quinlan 05:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the US spends less than 46 other countries in terms of percentage of GDP going to the military, according to wisegeek.com. I was surprised at that; and it also says that the US makes up 37% of the world's total military spending. Pretty scary stuff. But despite that truth, the US military should be documented as one which has been involved in a number of operations which have been internationally condemned - Guantanamo Bay being the most high-profile of these. And to clarify (in case it's not obvious where I'm going!), things which bring on international condemnation should be in a 'criticisms' section of a Wikipedia article. 219.90.172.227 16:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The US spends a lot of money because the US military has their shit together and can lobby like no other group in the country. With the nebulous risk to the nation's security, and the heavy money in the weapons industry, they are a notorious powerhouse. Also, it helps with the economy in Keynsian terms as recruiting for the military or spending money on weapons projects picks up the slack of unemployment and spurs the economy forward. The UK does this to less effect with the NHS. 199.172.169.17 10:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The military of a nation is the one thing that keeps that nation in existence. The military allows us to enjoy all the other aspects of society. The US has the most powerful military on the entire planet. US citizens should be appreciative of that.

The great Martin Luther King said that a nation underwent “spiritual death” when it spent more on “defense” than on “social uplift.” We should always remember that much of what we call “defense” is in fact what Pentagon insiders like to call “forward global force projection” – well, empire, including more than 700 military bases located in nearly every nation on earth. It is also worth recalling that much of our military budget is a huge taxpayer transfer payment to gigantic high-tech corporations like Boeing, Lockheed-Martin and Raytheon. Those powerful corporations have made a profit killing on all the human killing that’s been going on in the name of “the war on terror.” That I hope should answer the 1st reply. As for the last argument about the military being the one thing that keeps a nation in existence is essentialy flawed in the case of the US; Have there been many attacks on US soil since Pearl Harbor? I think not. In essence, the US military is used to secure strategic interests not defend the country.

I say If you can find any notable critisisms about the Military then go ahead and post them... remember... your own critisisms do not count Drew1369 18:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I would agree completely with your article if your facts were correct. I'm not trying to be mean with this, or criticize anyone on this page, its just I do a lot of military reading, and am very very interested in the subject. And well I could argue with some posts on this page, I'm not going to. It's simply unnecessary. But here's what I will say. The last major war to actually "be a danger to our country", which is very open to opinion, but I think would be safe to say the Cold War. It was what caused the US's major military buildup, to compete with the USSR. Since that only ended in 1991, much of that buildup still continues. And that reason for that buildup; the same way as it was in the Cold War. If the US wants to hold on to their position as a World Superpower, they must keep up their Military. Especially since our current relation with other powerful countries is, to say the least, weak. If something happens in the future that turns one of our powerful allies against us, we need the military superiority. It reminds me of the saying, "Speak Quietly, but walk with a big stick". Our military is that big stick. There our a few countries that our attempting to copy our military strength, but in order to be political and amicable, I not going to name them. If we stop our huge spending, we will fall behind, and the results would be bad, to say the least. I do agree that more needs to be spent in places like healthcare, and education, but let’s not take that money from the Military. However, I think the war on Iraq is a complete waste of funds. Imagine if we spent those Billions on the people who need it most. That would be a country I'd be more proud of. I think we have had some bad leaders lately, who are unable to juggle the responsibilty of keeping a well fit Military while at the same time keeping every US citizen at the same level. Edwardlay 04:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Should I list the Gigantic amount of humanitarian aid the US military transports and distributes here or in a new section that so far no one has bothered to acknowedge? 63.161.169.67 13:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)MiG18

In re: comments/criticism that the Cold War ended in 1991 and yet the U.S. military build-up has continued... In fact, the U.S. military as a percentage of either GDP or total goverment outlays declined from 1991 to 2001. Indeed, military spending in the U.S. was 5.2% of GDP in 1990, and declined to 3.0% of GDP in 2000. The U.S. military spent 60% of discretionary U.S. government outlays in 1990, which declined to 48% by 2000. [References: "Table 3.1: outlays by superfunction and function: 1940--2009," in Office of Management and Budget, Historical Tables, Budget of the United States Government, Fiscal Year 2005 (2004), Washington, pp. 45--52; "Public Budget Database, Budget of the United States Government, Fiscal Year 2005" (2004)] Now, one might agree or disagree with how the current "war on terrorism" is being fought, whether or not it SHOULD be fought, etc., but that's a separate subject, n'est pas? The fact is, the U.S. military went on a severe diet after the fall of the Berlin Wall. --Thesurveyor 03:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Miscellaneous

Are you sure that 18 is actually the age of the U.S. military? That's kind of unclear. From what I remember, people of age 16 with GED and parental permission can join the U.S. Military. --Cyberman 02:37, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Its actually age 17. GEDs have a very small quota for enlistment though, so its more difficult to join the military with a GED than a high school diplomia. Age 17 does require a consent from a legal guardian though. -J

What about the Merchant marine? --rmhermen—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.152.152.123 (talk • contribs) 11:45, 19 June 2002.

Merchent Marine is not part of the military The Drew 16:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

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Ok, it moved. I got very confused, especially with the fit / vs. reaching change thrown in there..... Dobbs 15:54 Sep 26, 2002 (UTC)

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All right, here is the re-edit. While it is a bit long on history in the organization section, no one I have ever spoken to who does not follow these things has ever heard of Goldwater-Nichols. Everyone still thinks that the military is organized on WWII lines, so I thought it best to explain. In addition, my understanding is that many foreign armed forces are structured along the older WWII lines (no, not exactly - but bear with me), so to draw out the differences might be good. Dobbs 18:03 Sep 26, 2002 (UTC)

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"Under the United States Constitution, the President of the United States is the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces. The President is responsible for ordering the armed forces through the Secretary of Defense to perform an objective. To coordinate military action with diplomatic action, the President has an advisory National Security Council."

You know, I thought of going top down as well, but this kinda confuses the issue IMHO. The Prez doesn't HAVE to order action via. the SECDEF, he could order the regional CINC, or the Joint Chiefs if he wanted to. Additionally, if the Prez (or vice-prez promoted to Prez) is incapacitated, the SECDEF can order action on his own. I thought that came across easier flowing up, rather than down. You think we might need a short ASCII chart or something?

           ----President---------------------------
          |        |            |                 |
          |                     |                 |
          |        |            |                 |
       SECDEF-----   -----------|                 |
          |        |            |                 |
          |                     |                 |
          |        |       Chairman JCOS         NSC
          |                     |
          |        |            |
          |                   JCOS
          |        |
 Functional or Regional CINC
              |
              |
              |
Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine
Responsible commanding General

The reason why this is important, is that is a very real sense in the USA, the CINC reports to the SECDEF, not to the President. That is to say, if the SECDEF orders the CINC to do something, he doesn't say "OK, but I'm gonna check with the president first." In the same vein, during the last days of the Nixon administration, a quiet order went out that the SECDEF was to countersign all orders, especially those regarding nukes, issuing from the President. Again, the Prez COULD order CINC's, but he doesn't - and the SECDEF is subordinate to the Prez, but he can lawfully order action on his own. Dobbs 18:49 Sep 26, 2002 (UTC)

Why was this removed? I think it is extremely useful to discuss the organizational history of the U.S. Armed Forces!

"Organization During and immediately after World War II, the United States military was organized along lines of command that reported to their respective service chiefs (i.e. General of the Army, Admiral of the Navy). These chiefs in turn reported to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The Joint Chiefs of Staff was a body formed by high-level representatives of each service, who elected a Chairman to communicate with the civilian government. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs in turn reported to the Secretary of Defense, the civilian head of the military. Both the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the Secretary of Defense reported to the President of the United States, who simultaneously holds the military rank of commander-in-chief.

This system lead to serious counter productive inter-service rivalry. Peacetime activities (such as procurement and creation of doctrine, etc.) were tailored for each service in isolation. Just as seriously, wartime activities of each service were planned, executed, and evaluated independently. These practices resulted in division of effort, the inability to profit from economies of scale, and inhibited the development of modern warfare doctrine.

The inability to work with other service branches was made apparent with the formulation of AirLand battle doctrine in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s. AirLand battle was an attempt to synthesize into a single doctrine all of the capabilities of the service arms of the military. This system envisioned ground, naval, air, and space based systems acting in concert to attack and defeat an opponent in depth. Realization of this ideal was impossible due to these structural factors.

To rectify these significant problems, the Goldwater-Nichols act of 1986 provided for the complete reorganization of the United States military command structure. It was the most far-reaching organizational change since the creation of the Air Force as a separate entity in 1947.

Goldwater-Nichols changed the way each service interacted with each other. Rather than reporting to a service chief, each service reported to a commander responsible for a specific function (Transportation, Space, Special Operations), or a geographic region of the globe (Europe, Middle East, etc.), known as the commander-in-chief (CINC). This combined arms commander would be responsible for fielding a force capable of employing AirLand battle doctrine (or its successors), with all assets available to the military. This allowed combination of effort, integrated planning, shared procurement, and a reduction or elimination in inter-service rivalry between commanders. This addressed a major conflict with Military Art, the rule of unity of command. Individual services changed from war fighting entities into organizational and training units, responsible for readiness. Thus CENTCOM (Central Command) for example, would be assigned air, ground, and naval assets in order to achieve its objective, not the inefficient method of individual services planning, supporting, and fighting the same war.

Shared procurement caused the most notable change in the peacetime military. This allowed technological advances to be quickly suffused throughout the military, and provided other ancillary benefits (such as the interoperability of radios between services, heretofore unknown in the military). Additionally, major technological advances, such as stealth and smart weapons were shared between services without duplication of effort, and joint implementation of new technology allowed for joint development of supporting doctrine.

United States military organization now flows from service arm generals (such as the commander of an Army division or corps), to the appropriate regional or functional CINC. The CINC reports to the Secretary of Defense. Both the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the Secretary of Defense report to the president, the national CINC. This profoundly changes the role of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. It now acts as a military advisory body for the President, without operational control of any regional command. In practice, the CINC advises both the Chairman and the Secretary as to conditions in his area of responsibility. Of course, the Secretary can deputize the Chairman to supervise the CINC, as happened in the Gulf War when Richard Cheney ordered Colin Powell to command Norman Schwarzkopf."

I can understand reorganizing it, or moving it to history. But the overall discussion, including the understanding of command and control of the Armed forces is very useful to a more complete understanding of the subject.

I can site more sources if that is the problem. But COMPLETE REMOVAL? I'm confused! Dobbs 17:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

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Does anyone have figures for the actual number of service members in the various branches? --rmhermen

The DoD's Statistical Information Analysis Division keeps track of that info as well as a lot of other interesting minutiae. (including the countries and regions where they're currently deployed, to answer Mulad's question below) 24.248.218.142 08:54, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

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I was thinking it might be interesting to have a list of places where U.S. military forces are currently deployed (then perhaps another page listing previous deployments). Maybe there is one somewhere already. —Mulad 05:26, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)

I removed the following as POV: America and allies "spend 57 times more than the seven "rogue states" combined (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria). " This statement is an obvious attempt to whitewash and deny the very real threat that the regimes of these states, even with a low budget, constitute to their neighbors and to the world. Try telling the persecuted minorities in Sudan in danger of genocide by the government that Sudan is not really a "rogue state" because they have little money. Ditto for the inhabitants of Seoul who have lived in the sights of North Korean artillery for the last fifty years. If you want to make the point about the size of American military expenditures, the note about them accounting for whatever huge share of the world total, with appropriate notes about the reasons for that, should be quite sufficient.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.12.51.110 (talk • contribs) 23:18, 11 April 2004.

In the interests of full disclosure, the comment above was made by me, before I have registered on Wikipedia. Watcher 01:09, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

I completly agree. Edwardlay 04:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

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Sure about this???

Of course, the Secretary can deputize the Chairman to supervise the CINC, as happened in the Gulf War when Richard Cheney ordered Colin Powell to command Norman Schwarzkopf.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Roadrunner (talk • contribs) 02:55, 14 May 2004.

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I changed the Recruitment:Enlisted section a bit. It referred to E-1, E-2, etc. as ranks. They are actually pay grades, not grades of rank. This is a fairly important distinction, for instance, some E-4s are NCOs by virtue of their rank, and some are not. I also removed the link brackets around the pay grades; they just went to disambiguation pages that had nothing to do with US military pay grades.

--68.41.122.213 00:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

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Deployment Numbers

I find the deployment numbers to be confusing, and perhaps deliberately? There is a total commissioned amount of forces given for the contiguous United States. But as for foreign forces, there are just some representative numbers in various countries, without any firm number or hint toward a total. I haven't read the entire article yet, but I am going to, and I do hope that there is some representative criticism documented, concerning the 64,000 troops still sitting in Germany, and 10,000 in Britain. Dmodlin71 15:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Budget Inconsistency

There is an inconsistency with the main article at Military budget of the United States, which states that "(w)hile the overall U.S. military budget has risen over time, as a percentage of its GDP, the United states spends 4% on military. This compares higher than France's 2.6%, and lower than Saudi Arabia's 10%." This article lists the United States' military budget as 3.7% of its GDP. Which figure is correct?

Abrichr 01:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I just checked on CIA factbook and it says its 4.06% of the GDP.

Actually the budget reflected in the article is probably accurate mostly because of the fiscal military budget released every year by the Executive Branch compared to the Treasury Department report of the GDP yearly. ViriiK 05:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I like to expand on this.

The budget released by the White House displays that the budget for 2006 is 413.6 billion dollars.

In the summary table found here [1], the GDP for 2005 is 12.227 trillion and for 2006 is 12.907 trillion. The White House gave 400.1 billion in 2005 (3.2723%) and 419.3 billion in 2006 (3.2486%). Now this is not counting the War on Terrorism and War in Iraq budget which the % seems to count that in too according to the citation used. ViriiK 05:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Title

Among almost the 128 articles of Category:Militaries, the overwhelming convention is to use 'Military of country'. We should almost certainly move this page to 'Military of the United States' to fall in with this convention. •→Iñgólemo←• 04:11, 2004 Sep 22 (UTC)

I think it should be "U.S. military." Maurreen 17:23, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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Unless there are any objections, I'd like to move the Budget sections down the page a bit. I think most people reading this article would want information about capabilities and command structure first. -- Friedo 16:13, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Reversion

I am going to revert edits by 137.186.225.118. This material at least needs attribution. Maurreen 17:23, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Requested move

• United States armed forces → Military of the United States – The vast majority of the countries military pages are titled "Military of <country name>" — srs 03:48, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

add: * Support or * Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and a signature:"~~~~"

• Support. Follows convention, and "military" is easier to categorize than "armed forces". --A D Monroe III 14:19, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Support, follows convention. Warofdreams 11:18, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

---Add any additional comments on the "Requested move" below this line ---

Is there a legal diffrence between "United States armed forces" and "Military of the United States"?. See combatant (which takes its definition from Third Geneva Convention Article 4):

• Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict
• Members of militias not under the command of the armed forces

The US constitution includes the "and of the Militia of the several States" should the States Militia included in this if it is moved? PBS 11:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

        "And the militia of the several states" means the national gaurd ````Drew

I think military is a superset of armed forces, so it would be correct to include everything from armed forces in military. The definition of armed forces seems to suggest that it relates specifically to a state, but the title "Military of the United States" should make it clear that we are referring to the military forces of the United States. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure of any legal differences, however. srs 23:13, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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I've tried to implement some of the suggestions listed here I put the long discussion of the budget on its own page, and I added a list of where personel are deployed.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.102.42.97 (talk • contribs) 01:49, 21 March 2005.

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 21:38, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Reorganise

I think all of the pages - US armed forces, US Department of Defense, and all the services (US Army etc.) need to be reorganised, First so that there is not uneeded overlap, and Second so that Army, Navy etc. are all set out the same way (eg. similar headings and article structure, just with different content.)

• United States armed forces
• United States Department of Defense
• United States Army
• United States Navy
• United States Air Force
• United States Marine Corps
• United States Coast Guard

and maybe Joint Chiefs of Staff etc.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.168.97.7 (talk • contribs) 00:06, 22 March 2005.

Expenses

I think it would be interresting to have more datas on the military expense of USA vs. other countries, like expenses per capita or relative to some indicator of the country wealthiness GNP or GDP for instance. Ericd 21:15, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've added this information under Budget comparison. Scott5834 17:03, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

First strike policy

Can the person who added this:

However, it is the standing policy of the United States military to never strike an opponent first with nuclear weapons, but rather as retaliation to similar attacks.

provide a reference?

It was my understanding that the US/NATO did not have a no first use policy.. In fact, I thought it was the Soviet Union which had this policy (due to their large conventional forces superiority in Europe), and that it was NATO which had plans to use tactical nukes in case of a soviet invasion. srs 05:15, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think you're correct, but so is the text. I've heard it expressed the way you describe it, and the way the text describes it. That NATO policy was in regards to a fight against the Soviet Union during the Cold War years. A war against a smaller country, such as Saddam's Iraq, would be a different matter. I don't have a reference, though, nor do I know whether that NATO policy still stands. -- Randy 18:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I think its pretty safe to say that US wouldn't be the first to use nuclear weapons in a fight where it had a large conventional weapons superiority, but were it (or close European allies), to be on the losing side of a large scale conventional war, and their terrorities threatened, I think that nuclear weapons would be used. I don't think the US ever had a policy that expressly stated that it would only use WMDs in the case that it was attacked with similar weapons. In fact, its just the opposite, especially recently: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22374-2002Jun9.html srs 19:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't think the USA has a no-first use policy. Does anyone have any references?--KiwiDave 13:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

IMO the USA have switched from a doctrine of gradual response to a doctrine of preventive war (I don't know if I use the exact English expressions...). As of today military doctrines about the switch from conventional war to nuclear war are really unclear in the USA as well as in many (western of not) countries (unclear/nuclear... that's funny... or not... My dyslexic nature is more obvious to me in English than in French.) Ericd 03:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

About the Washington Post article : In fact the Bush admistration striked first against nations that had no weapons of mass destructions. Ericd 03:50, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

reaching military age

Why do people keep changing this number? If you want to change it, not list females, etc, PLEASE say why before you do. Or cite a source.protohiro 17:52, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

73 million?

Availability: males & females ages 15-49: 73,597,731 (2004 est.)

Is this correct?

I have no idea. What concerns me is listing 15-49. Under what horrifying circumstances would we be using 15 year olds in our service? func(talk) 00:10, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Historically, these are the ages used in combat and drafting in times of desparation. ChronoSphere 00:13, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

The listing of people age 15-49 is on the page of every country's military. I think it is pretty silly, but it is standard - it comes from the CIA world factbook. The fact is the number of people in this age group is pretty meaningless. Why not a country's total population. The point is to get some estimate of manpower, yet any listing, whether of total population or of males within a certain age group (which will to a great extent be related to the total population) can hardly give a true estimate of a country's military potential. Such statistical breakdowns of population should probably be gotten rid of.

It derives from the census method of measuring population by age: 0-4, 5-9, 10-14, 15-19, etc. Admittedly, it's annoying when trying to measure adult populations, but it helps for data gathering when age of majority doesn't factor in. --RealGrouchy 22:08, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

If there is any way to change the table just for this site, the CIA World Factbook uses 18-49 as the available ages for military service. Those numbers are:

"males age 18-49: 54,609,050

females age 18-49: 54,696,706 (2005 est.)"

these are the numbers actually usable by the US military, and are therefore, IMO, more relevant for this article.MikeNM 20:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, people don't even have to register for the draft until they turn 18. Even so, if a draft were to happen, our total troops numbers would jump up fast. Highly doubtfull unless WWIII sudenly starts out of no where though. Crashedata 18:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Age should be changed to 17, in my opinion. And even though we must register for the draft at 18, if I were to occur, 18+19 year olds most likely wouldn't be drafted at all. The order goes like this: 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 19, 18. I got somewhere on sss.gov. Edwardlay 04:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Bases

There is a vote here to change "Military bases" categories to "Military facilities" categories. Maurreen 09:47, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Uniforms

Can we have a section on Uniforms. I know they differ between service, but I managed to add a section on Personell and Ranks - even though the services have different ranking systems, there are some similarities, for example, some form of ROTC, enlisted/officer distinction, MOS, enlisties going in at E-1 for Basic training, then going to E-2 etc, etc. I don't know enough about uniforms, but could someone compare and contrast the different types of uniforms eg. what are Utility uniforms, Service uniforms, battle dress, Mess dress etc. - Matthew238 04:14, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

We can have whatever we/you want (within established community criteria, of course). Be bold, create the uniforms article (if it doesn't already exist in whatever form) put in what you know, however little, create a link on the appropriate service pages' "See also" sections, or wherever else would be appropriate, and then stand by for merciless editing by other wikipedians... --Easter Monkey 05:00, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I would add a section, but I don't know anything about the subject. - Matthew238 05:27, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Why is Military manpower Availability males & females?

I have noticed that the entry on Availability of the Military manpower table of the United States and Israel include males and females, while all other Armed forces only have "males".

You make it seem like Israel and the USA are the only countries in the world that allow women to serve in the Armed Forces.

This is false, because in most countries, the opportunities for males and females are exactly the same in the military. In fact, the United States is more sexist than, say, Germany, because unlike Germany they do not allow female Combat Troops. However, the German constitution makes it illegal to draft women into the Armed Forces under any circumstance.

In Norway, women can be drafted, yet the Availability entry for Norway also only mentions males.

unsigned comment by User:Mohmar Deathstrike 05:09, 13 November 2005

I'd assume it's a matter of availability of references, not a susposed lack of sexism.

If you have references on the numbers of women in other armies, then go ahead and add them. --A D Monroe III 00:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The availability is based on population within military age (18-60?), if I'm not mistaken. So that should be fairly simple.

Let's see if my edit's in other countries' military wikis get removed.

Male and Female are under the Availability section... What doesn't it mean ? Well, I don't know... As of today women and men can serve in the French army and I don't believe there's any legal discrimination. But I believe in the case of a general mobilization only male would be mobilized. Maybe the US law allow of a mobilization of Male and Female ? Ericd 04:01, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

POV

"The United States Armed Forces is the most powerful military in the world and their power projection capabilities are unrivaled by any other singular nation (e.g. People's Republic of China, Russia, India) or organization (e.g. the European Union)." This is pure POV if you ask me. How the hell have you come to this fact? Ammounts of victories? Ammounts of personell? The nukes? Just give me a strong motive, please.

Are you disagreeing with the validity of the statement, or just its tone?

As for the validity, I don't know of any reliable source that thinks some other military organization rivals that of the U.S., which spends as much on its military as the next ten militaries combined (as shown in this article). The U.S. is often referred to as "the world's only superpower", or even "hyperpower". If you have a source that says otherwise, it would be good to add it.

As for the tone, I suppose you could say that it sounds prideful. However, I know some U.S. citizens who do not share such pride in their country's overt might, even given the current wording. Even so, if you have some ideas on changing the tone for a non-U.S. POV, go ahead and edit it. --A D Monroe III 18:46, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The military sure had their patriotic thumbs up their patriotic asses on 9/11. "Which way did he go, George, which way did he go?" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.150.225.205 (talk) 01:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC).

The US Military is the most powerful military in the world, and its capability to project power is unrivaled. While it might seem POV, boastful, or prideful, it is the truth. Jrkarp 03:49, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with the original poster. It's true that the US Military is generally considered as the most powerful military in the world, it cannot, however, be proven that it is. With the invention of nuclear weapons the definition of military power changed dramatically, and it has to be noted that most military information is not known to the general public, therefore one-on-one army comparisons are difficult to make and stating that a certain military is the most powerful is impossible to prove. I changed the sentence from The United States Armed Forces is the... to The United States Armed Forces is generally considered the....

Why even compare the US armed forces to the EU in the first place ? Do I feel some anti-european sentiment ? Seriously, the POV in this article, as well as the americentrism, need to be toned down. We need references, credible numbers, and somebody who can write with an NPOV. –Aquarelle 12:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

You're right, there is no comparison :) - A

While I am immensly prideful when it comes to our armed forces, I agree that it is hard to prove that it is the most powerful. It is, however, not disputable that we have the greatest capability for projection of power, and thus, I believe that this part of the statement should remain.MikeNM 20:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It's pure opinion and it's got to go. Stick with the facts; highest military expenditure, second largest in terms of personnel, one of 9 nations known to have nuclear weapons, one of approximately XXX with the ability to project force around the world.--KiwiDave 13:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It is pure opinion and unsubstantiated by the facts, the US military hasn't won a war since the Korean War and that was a truce. I should rephrase that, they haven't won a war against someone they hadn't already armed first... -- chebizarro—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.133.69.201 (talk • contribs) 10:32, 9 August 2006.(adding unsigned template as this is the real contributor. No proof that user chebizarro posted this.)--Nobunaga24 00:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

That comment is pure POV as well. Shouldn't we just stick to the facts? I should rephrase that, shouldn't we just stick to what is commonly known to be true? Otherwise I am afraid Wikipedia is going to be a ditatorship of the town idiots... There are plenty of other places where you can voice your unfounded political views, regardless of what they might be. This is not the place to do so ;) MartinDK 10:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The US forces are the most technologically advanced and best equipped in the world. They also huge, superior, naval and airborne fleets. They have the best power projection capability, and a huge base of active troops. They have a budget no other nation can realistically compete with. Someone please explain to me why the power of the US forces are doubted? If they aren't the most powerful, who is? China? A huge, poorly equipped & poorly trained army that desperately needs a bigger budget. And their power projection capability really isn't on the same level. So yes, the evidence says that the statement should stay there - unless any rational argument exists that some other nation has somehow managed to compete with the budget, numerical advantage, and technology of the US forces. --Karafias 01:47, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

This statement is true, no other country can even spend that much on their military.

It is a bit prideful, but it is true...

--NitemareDragon

Its not a point of view because there is no evidence that any country has a more powerful military. You could use pure numbers such as the budget that is completely unrivaled because it takes up 40% of the world military budget.--HAVOK14

Why is the military taking so long to beat Iraq then? Why did the Military lose in Vietnam? There are obviously more factors.

Maybe this is only obvious to me, but the concept "most powerful" in an era of asymetric warfare needs a bit more definition. Prior to 1991, the concept of "most powerful" was viewed in essentially a three-way race to the top: U.S. and its allies (essentially NATO), U.S.S.R. and ITS allies (essentially Warsaw Pact) and China as the swing vote. US and USSR had an intriguing balance of nukes (USSR with more, US with better), China had both trumped with more people (and, for that matter, still does), and everyone kinda realized that if the USSR ever started sending land armies across the Fulda Gap, the US and NATO would respond with tactical battlefield nukes -- a M.A.D. factoid that more-or-less kept WW-III from happening. Today, of course, the battle lines are completely different, but so is the manner of conducting war. It's quite analogous to the Germans in WW-I keeping their nice, clean Navy at the docks and going up against G.B. with a bunch of cheap submarines. Save for Jutland, asymetric warfare left the First Lord of the Admiralty (a fellow named Churchill, as I recall) thrashing around for something to do. Sadly, he thought up Galipoli, and as a result ended the war as a Major on the Western Front. Asymetric warfare has, of course, driven our U.S. politicians quite batty, sitting on top of the most powerful armed force the world has ever known and yet not being able to find, capture, or kill a 6'7" Arab living in a cave dragging around a dialysis machine. Almost makes you feel sorry for Rumsfeld....almost... but not quite. -- Thesurveyor 03:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

We did not lose Militarily in Vietnam, we lost politically, big difference, we inflicted incredible damage to them, but the American population could not take 60,000 American deaths, and thus forced us out. And as to Iraq, we don't know where the enemy is, they don't fight conventional battles, counter-insurgency fighting capability doesn't state the power of one's military.

The United States Armed Forces has the largest/most powerful navy/air force, has the only real worldwide power projections, has the best equipment in terms of technology, the best training, most funding, and is rather large, all of these point to it being the best Vladiator 08:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Notes

• ^ This figure is from ages 18 to 49.(age 16 with parents approval)

Overseas

Are these figures for oversea deployments accurate? I thought that the US pulled troops out of Germany. pstudier 19:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• They were accurate when they were first added. It just depends on how often various facts and statistics are updated. - Matthew238 01:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

?

If the U.S. has 2.26 million personnel (including reserves), wouldn't have the largest military force in the world? Because China has 2.25 million, but is this not counting their reserves?--Moosh88 21:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a reference for this number ? I think that it is far too large. In fact, I am under the impression that the US has the 3rd largest military after China and India. Sorry, Americans. –Aquarelle 12:14, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

In terms total number of troops the United states would have less then many countrys. In terms of the number of Active Troops, the United States is second to China. The reference is in the article itself. The US has 2.9 million total, China has 14.5 million total.

Where do you get 14.5 million from? China has 3 million, the US has 2.9 and India has 2.48 million troops. The US has second largest active duty military in the world.

Total, or Active, or Militia... and not all countries define (or declare) those the same way. -Yasha

Age of Army

I recently about 5 months ago talked to an Army recruiter and the age of Army is 18. You can sign up at 17 however you are NOTenlisted until you complete all of your training which doesn't happen until age 18 at the soonest

THIS IS FALSE. I enlisted at 17 and didn't turn 18 until after I had finished infantry OSUT training, jump school and ranger indoctrination training, went on leave and was stationed at 2/75 Ranger battalion for months. The second you show up for active-duty initial entry and raise your right hand and swear the oath, you are ENLISTED. The US military accepts 17 year-olds with the permission of their parents. Since a HS diploma is USUALLY required, most 17 year-olds would be ineligible. I skipped first grade and so graduated at 17.199.173.226.235 19:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but just to be sure, we need to make sure we have a reference (it may be incredibly standard that kids don't enlist until they are 18, but perhaps there is some part of the law that alows them to do it at 17 or 16). As well, there have been some changes to the ages of military manpower availability without actually changing the numbers (just the ages). Logic says that the age restrictions can't change without the numbers changing, so we need to clarify that as well. I believe it's all listed on the CIA page, although I hate to oversite this particular source. –Aquarelle 05:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

They can enlist at 17 with their parent/guardian's permission. They cannot go to combat til they are 18 which would not occur because they will turn 18 before they complete all of their initial training and schooling--Looper5920 06:54, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

See United States Code Title 10, section 505. I enlisted at 17 with parental consent at an advanced pay grade, then completed all 11B military occuational specialty training in about 6 months, including basic combat training. I arrived at my permanent assignment with a select infantry battalion and promptly went on QRF alert all before my 18th birthday. After 6 months, a person in the military is considered to be a veteran, eligible for benefits if separated from the service before the expiration of her or his term of service (ETS). Hotfeba 02:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Then this should be reworded to Enlistment Age b/c yes you can enlist at 17 w/parents consent but my sister who has been in Army for 18years(she's still in it) told me that your not considered a Soldjeir(excuse my spelling plz)until you complete all of basic training and get your millitary ID Card and even if you enlist at 17 if you do something that is against the requirments it voids your contract hence your not army.

One of the first things you get AFTER swearing the Oath of Enlistment is an ID Card. Indeed, you cannot proceed with any other processing until you get your ID Card. Training, and getting your initial uniform and equipment issue comes AFTER you get your ID Card. SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 15:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

It is inaccurate that someone cannot go into combat before the age of 18. A person may enlist with parental permission at the age of 17. One could enlist on one's 17th birthday, go to recruit training (7-13 weeks depending on branch), follow it on with weeks or months of advanced training, and be deployed - including going into combat - before their 18th birthday. I've seen it happen several times among friends who graduated from high school at 17 and wound up deployed or deployable by their 18th birthday. A 17 year old enlistee is treated no differently from an 18 year old...the 17 year old simply needed parental permission to enlist.

I belive that I saw an artical in stars and stripes that made some note of the under 18 soldiers in combat zones. It used to be that way, but has recently been changed. You can be a soldier, but you are not deployable to a combat zone untill after your 18th birthday. --LucasRN 23:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

United States article on featured candidate nominations list

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States

Cast your vote! The more responses, the more chances the article will improve and maybe pass the nomination.--Ryz05 _t 23:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

World Factbook

To be consistent, should this, and then all Wikipedia "military of..." articles be updated to use numbers provided by the current CIA World Factbook? MikeNM 14:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Demographics

Could demographics be incorporated into this article? --67.68.24.245 08:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Military polices

Although it looks they are not part of the Military Police Corps, several units or agencies like Pentagon Force Protection Agency, Master-at-arms or Naval Criminal Investigative Service perform law enforcement or police tasks. Should these articles be in Category:Military Police Corps or Category:United States military police, or in a new category (wider than Category:Military Police Corps) like Category:US Military law enforcement? Apokrif 17:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The Pentagon Force Protection Agency is a civilian agency, while the NCIS and the US Army Criminal Investigative Division - and their sibling in the Air Force - are part of the Military Police Sphere. The Master-At-Arms is a time-honored position aboard ship, and they parallel the Navy's Shore Patrol, which is the Navy's answer to the Army's Military Police, and the Air Force's Air Police. SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 15:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

According to the article: " NIS mission was again clarified and became a mostly civilian agency", "During the 1970s, NIS civilian agents gained civil service status" Apokrif 13:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct about Civil Service Status, but under the General Schedule list of titles. Almost ALL of the Civilians in the NCIS (NIS was upgraded and renamed) are accepted from the Military, and most of those are from the Navy. The same is true for the Army's Criminal Investigation Division. Keeping the Detectives out of Uniform gives them a measure of independence from the Chain of Command that could otherwise color or influence an investigation, but they both are still IN the Chain of Command. It is just that their links attach at the level of their respective service Secretary.SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 16:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Question: Damage Controlman

Master Chief Damage Controlman D. Westlye, Command Master Chief for Commander Naval Region Northeast, Detachment New York, leads a group of U.S. Navy Sailors into “Ground Zero”

Where at Wikipedia can I find information about Damage Controlmen? What are their duties? What ranks etc. do they have? Is this limited to the USN? Scriberius 13:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Navigational Box

It seems that most military articles have a navigational box to the right, such as the one on military of France or military of Mexico. This one doesn't, and as one of the most powerful militaries in the world, it should. I don't have the knowledge to make one myself, but it'd be great if someone else could. Thanks, Atb129 19:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Requirements.

There should be a part of this page which explains the requirements for being in the military in more detail than simply "You don't have to be an American Citizen". I, for one, would love to go to the military, but unfortunately I have a bit of bad luck in that they don't allow persons who must take medicines to join the military. That they have standards that disallow certain people from joining should be noted, and if there exists any statistics on the number of people who want to join the military but can't I would also like to know.

Thanks! (Starblade)

US Military Sign Language?

I have noticed in...Video games...MIlitary recruiting commercials....a certain sign language for saying things like "The area is clear" or "Regroup" or "Hold your fire". Things like that.... I was wondering if there is an article on this? --Johnston49er 04:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

How many foreign countries host U.S. Military bases?

The article says 132, which is wildly inaccurate. [2]. --Mathew5000 18:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I copied the following, down to my post of 1901 16 Novemeber, from the Humanities reference desk. DJ Clayworth

The trailer for Why We Fight (2005 film) has a clip of Chalmers Johnson stating there are “725 American military bases in 130 foreign countries”. Is that accurate? I find it difficult to believe that ⅔ of the world's countries host U.S. military bases. Category:Overseas military bases refers to bases in just a handful of countries. How many countries actually do host U.S. military bases and is there a list of those countries on Wikipedia? Thanks. --Mathew5000 10:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Matthew - our article Military of the United States claims 702 bases in 132 countries, which is sourced to the Base Structure Report located here (link loads a pdf file). I haven't counted the bases and countries, but there are 13 pages of Army, and another 10 of Air Force so there's a fair few to be sure. I also saw an 'Unknown' column, which is potentially somewhat unnerving... --Mnemeson 10:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

There might be several bases being dismanteled but still on the lists and papers, and other bases who simply don't appear on the official papers, as in "secret bases". I remember that a base in Iceland had been dismanteled a couple of months ago (therefore after the movie). On the whole US military bases appear to be closing in some safe areas and new (perhaps fewer) bases appear in troubled zones. Flamarande 12:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Mnemeson. The pdf file is a 1999 report, so it's odd that the Wikipedia article states such a precise number without adding "as of 1999". But aside from that, I don't see where that report says there are bases in 132 countries. For example, "Puerto Rico" is not a country; "Crete" is not a country, "Indian Ocean" is not a country. --Mathew5000 17:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Following up, I went through that list in the 1999 base report, and it names only 29 distinct foreign countries in which the U.S. has military bases. How could anyone have believed that the true figure is 132? The 29 foreign countries named in the 1999 report are:

Antigua - Air Force; Australia - Navy, Air Force; Bahamas - Navy; Bahrain - Navy; Belgium - Army, Air Force; Colombia - Air Force; Cuba - Navy; Denmark - Air Force, Air Force [Greenland]; Egypt - Navy; France - Air Force; Germany - Army, Air Force; Greece - Navy [Crete], Air Force; Iceland - Navy; Italy - Army, Navy, Air Force; Japan - Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines; Korea - Army, Navy, Air Force; Marshall Islands - Army [Kwajalein Atoll]; Luxembourg - Army; Netherlands - Army, Air Force; Norway - Air Force; Oman - Air Force; Panama - Army, Air Force; Peru - Navy; Portugal - Air Force; Singapore - Navy, Air Force; Spain - Navy, Air Force; Turkey - Air Force; UK - Army, Navy, Air Force [St Helena], Air Force; Venezuela - Air Force;

--Mathew5000 18:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you missed Indonesia, a navy base totalling 3200sq.ft. But apart from that I entirely agree. I'll change the article. DJ Clayworth 18:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

However this page add Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Ethopia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq. this page adds Jordan, Quatar, UAE. this page adds some things called 'port of call' in places like Uraguay and Hong Kong. The definition of 'base' may be variable. DJ Clayworth 19:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You probably also missed Ecuador (Correa, the new president vowed not to extend the contract). I think the article lacks honesty about the US military presence abroad. For example, since a consensus on the the definition of base couldn't be reached, it would be fair to list the countries with military presence. Ironically, it might be a lot more faster to just list the ones that don't have military personel in them. Seriously though, a document from 1999 (conveniently right before W&co) has very little relevance and updated sources should be added to reflect the current reality. It doesn't necessarily have to be official documents from the DoD.Lixy 17:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, the numbers are correct; "In 2003 Pentagon owned (rented) 702 overseas bases in about 130 countries and had another 6,000 bases in the United States and its territories"; here is the Department of the Defense report from 2003. Lovelight 14:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that the numbers (702) are skewed and do need to be dated since, for example, it lists Rhein Mein as an active base yet it closed in 2005. This is likely to include several other installations since the last BRAC. Additionally a sizeable amount of the NON-CONUS locations are housing annexes. Simply put, this is an off-base location owned by the DOD and used for housing personnel and their families at these installations. Calling a housing annex a base is a misnomer. They are listed separately since they are not physically attached to the base, but are affiliated with it.137.244.215.19 21:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

There are a range of relatively recent terms used to describe different types of multiservice permanent and contingency sites: Cooperative Security Location (CSL), Forward Operating Site (FOS), and Forward Operating Base (FOB). It would also help to create an article on the term Main Operating Base (MOB). --Petercorless 21:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

It is just a myth that the United States has bases "in about 130 countries". You can find that myth all over the Internet but no reliable sources that I can see. The lengthy pdf that Lovelight linked to above does not contain the phrase he put in quotation marks. --Mathew5000 02:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Former CIA official and scholar Chalmers Johnson claims "737 bases on every continent in more than 130 countries" in an interview on DemocracyNow.org. No offense pal, but I think the wiki would take the word of such a renowned figure over yours anytime. Lixy 19:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

That's just the point -- the figure originates, as far as I can tell, with a statement by Chalmers Johnson in the film Why We Fight. But on its face the number is absurdly high. --Mathew5000 00:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It wouldn't be a bad idea for Wikipedia to have a List of countries hosting United States military bases. By my count there are 43 such countries mentioned above. I would be curious what the other 87 countries are that Chalmers Johnson is thinking about, or has he just made a mistake? On thinking about it a little more, I wonder if he is counting units of the Marines assigned guard duties at foreign embassies and consulates. --Mathew5000 01:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I had the exact same thoughts on the foreign embassies and consulates. --Petercorless 01:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

That is my thought as well. Every embassy/mission/whatever has some marine embassy guards working for the DSS chief. So the statement might be technically accurate, but it implies something else completely. --Purpleslog 20:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

My Lai Massacre

I deleted this link from the see also section since it was totally irrelavent. 58.84.82.197 01:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that "totally" is correct. Certainly as the article currently stands it's not identifiably relevant. But surely activities by the various armed forces that have been significantly controversial should at least be briefly commented upon, with relevant links to take interested readers on to more in-depth articles on the relevant topics. Abu Ghraib is another obvious topic for at least passing comment.

Also, if there's an article somewhere giving an overview or history of US foreign policy, then that should be linked to somewhere. Rather bizarrely, the article doesn't even mention the phrase "foreign policy"! Silverhelm 04:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

I Have to say that the American Army is one of the most powerful armies,and it isn't the most powerful.

^No it is definately the most powerful do some research on it not just other militaries.

Naming

Articles on other militaries get their full official titles (Iraqi Security Forces, Canadian Forces, Australian Defence Force, British Armed Forces, etc.), so why is this article at Military of the United States instead of United States Armed Forces? 65.99.214.90 03:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it might becuase we do not have an "Offical" name ForeverDEAD 05:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

National Guard

The Army National Guard alone consists of roughly 325,000+ Soldiers, and the Air National Guard has at least 100,000 Airmen. The combined number of 53,000 for the two forces is obviously incorrect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by QbicCreation (talk • contribs) 00:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

Inaccuracies in description of United States Armed Forces (unofficially Military of the United States)

The United States Armed Forces consists of the regular and reserve components of the several armed forces. Properly, the United States Armed Forces consists of the United States Army (which is the Regular Army), the United States Army Reserve, the Army National Guard of the United States (which in turn consists of the National Guards of the several states which the Supreme Court has ruled in the past pre-date the existence of the ANGUS), the United States Navy (which is the Regular Navy), the United States Naval Reserve (or sometimes the Fleet Reserve), the United States Marine Corps, the United States Marine Corps Reserve (sometimes referred to as the Fleet Marine Reserve), the United States Air Force (which is the Regular Air Force), the United States Air Force Reserve, and the Air National Guard of the United States (composed of the Air National Guards of the several states). In times of emergency, add the regular and reserve Coast Guard components and stir. Failure to mention any of those components generally leads to inter-service meyham, especially in the presence of alcohol. The sources for this are scattered throughout United States Code Title 10. Hotfeba 03:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The phrase "Army of the United States" has been used to refer to all regular and reserve components of the Army together. It may be out of date, but keeping that terminology in mind, it makes 10USC references to "the Army" consistently apply to all Army personnel, regular or reserve, while on active duty. Maybe this makes it easier to implement a draft. Hotfeba 03:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

There has been the phrase "armed forces of the United States" which seems to include everything in the above list (see 10USC113 around (i)(1)(A)), and then the phrase "United States Armed Forces" seems to be used to refer only to the regular components; however, the thrust of the article is to focus on the entire military establishment, not just the regular forces. Hotfeba 03:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Neither the Constitution of the United States of America, the United States Codes, nor the opinions of the United States Supreme Court make any reference to the "Military of the United States". Hotfeba 03:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Hotfebe, I belive that the term 'Army of The United States' applied to a conscript army. The Term 'United States Army' applies to the regular Army and it's AG/R components. --LucasRN 23:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The order of service branches of the article

United States Joint Color Guard

The order of precedence when displaying the colors is: Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard (as shown on the joint color guard) the same can be said when listing the service branches. Who ever created the flags displayed at the bottom of the page did not take this into consideration when creating it. -Signaleer 07:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... Intesting, I was lead to believe, like all U.S. citizens, that there is no precedence when it comes to our country's armed forces. While I respect your knowledge stemming from being in the service, I was educated believing that all brances are equal, and while they serve different specialties they are one in the same; a family. The reason, I listed it the way before was to show the order in which each branch joined/created our country's armed service, not that I believe one branch is better than the other, even though I did grow up as a navy brat. :) Neovu79 03:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a military protocol and it is in military regulations to the display of the service branch colors. The order of precedence begins and ends with the oldest to the youngest service branch of the armed forces. For example the Joint Service Color Guard shown here clearly shows the American flag on the far right of the color guard (the right being the highest place of honor, followed by the oldest service branch, the Army, the Army also has the honor of carrying the American flag and the Joint Color Guard noncomissioned officer-in-charge is always an Army NCO who carries the American flag, then the Marines, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard). -Signaleer 10:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Template has been fixed to follow that order. Robbskey 13:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing this, much appreciated. -Signaleer 14:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

No problem, wouldn't want the Marines to be upset. Robbskey 18:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but having been in the service and participated in hundreds of color guards with all the different branches displaying of the colors, the true order of the precedence is United States flag, Army flag, Navy flag, Marine Corp flag, Coast Guard flag, and Air Force flag. The Army is quick to tell you the order is due to the order of the oldest to the youngest service but unfortunately everyone tries to put their service at the front and so the true order is unfortunately wrong most the time when they do this and do not stick to the correct order. Nihesa 23:59, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

The order of precedence is Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard. The exception to the order would be IF the Coast Guard were to be in the service of the Navy (last time that happened was World War II), then the order would be Army, Marines, Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force. This is covered in the several services regulations. As a former Coast Guardsman, I have been in joint service color guards for years and this is the way it has always been done. The Army is the service in charge of interservice ceremony and funeral protocol and I'm sure there is a Army Field Manual that states this order of precedence, I just can't come up with a reference. Cuprum17 (talk) 01:06, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Misleading Statistic

In the section "Expenditures", the last sentence says that current US military spending as a portion of the country's total economic production (Gross Domestic Product) is "historically fairly low for the United States." The cited data ([3]) only go back to 1940, while the United States and its Armed Forces have a much longer history. I changed the sentence to accommodate the restricted nature of the cited data.

Looking for broader data, I found a history of the Navy's budget from 1794 to 2004 at [4]. I think the numbers are not adjusted for inflation. I compared the Navy budgets against historical (unadjusted) GDP figures (via [5]) and found that 2004's Navy budget-per-GDP was approx. 1.06%, roughly in line with the 1794-2004 average of approx. 1.13%. But, it's getting late, and I don't know how best to incorporate this data, so I'm throwing it out to y'all to do with as y'all see fit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.12.41.143 (talk) 08:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

Armed Forces

I propose we call the article United States Armed Forces. It's the proper name for the armed services. I want to garner support for a move to this name. Mrld 00:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not support this move because I could not find any other credible encyclopedia that has an article titled United States Armed Forces, furthermore, I have seen it spelled United States armed forces lower-cased. -Signaleer 07:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

There are two reasons to do it. First, United States Armed Forces is correct. Second, it's in common usage, while "Military of the United States" is not. "United States military" would also be a viable option, since it's also a commonly-used term. 71.203.209.0 03:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Having searched through US Title 10 as per the talk page above, 'United States Armed Forces' is used on occasion in various amendments to refer to elements of the Department of Defence. US Title 10 is quite clear on the SecDef controlling the DOD, and nothing above the DOD being known as the 'United States Armed Forces'. US Armed Forces is used to describe elements of the DOD. Thus, the top-level page for the 'Military of the United States' etc should be the Department of Defence. Buckshot06 18:23, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note, it is Department of Defense http://www.defenselink.mil/ -TabooTikiGod 14:07, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

So should it be at United States Armed Forces or the military of? I'm leaning toward Armed Forces. Unless anybody has any objections to moving... — SheeEttin {T/C} 21:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Im gona have to go with Armed forces on this one ForeverDEAD 02:13, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Possibly it should be moved to United States armed forces. Would anyone object to that? Buckshot06 02:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

United States armed forces. It avoids ambiguities. --ROGER DAVIES ^TALK 17:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

In fact, once we'd change the title of the "Military of the United States" we'll be obliged to change most of other titles (Spanish Armed Forces, Brazilian Armed Forces, etc). -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 18:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. I've never liked the Military of ... option. --ROGER DAVIES ^TALK 19:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I object to the idea of changing the article's name to "United States Armed Forces," as another user pointed out it would disrupt the entire categorization of all countries "military" articles on Wikipedia. I will also note that there's also a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Defense Wikipedia Department of Defense article -- I do not see a valid reason to move the article's name. -TabooTikiGod 14:07, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Chief of Staff

since when is Robert M. Gates the chief of staff? Pretty sure it's General Peter Pace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.98.161 (talk)

Unfounded claim?

"The United States military is notorious for killing and injuring its own troops, and those of it's allies."

Has this claim got any founding??? If it does happen, it probably doesn't happen with intention, and it certainly isn't notorious for it (not with me, at least). jheijmans 05:13, 18 April 2002 (UTC)

• Playing wargames, I know that almost all sides in WWII bombed their own troops by accident, I wouldn't say the US was notorious for it, unless you go by M*A*S*H episodes. I'm removing the phrase. If someone wants to provide actual examples and documentation they're welcome to...

Rgamble

• There is a WW II joke - between a German soldier and a English soldier, the German says "When the Luftwaffe bomb you duck; when the RAF bombs we duck; when the Americans bomb everybody ducks!". And see AMERICAN FRIENDLY-FIRE NOTEBOOK which states 21% of American WW II casualties were friendly fire, rising to almost 50% by the Gulf War.
  • My concern was with the word 'notorious'. I have heard the above joke (just this weekend in fact). To show the notoriety, I would want to see a comparison of friendly fire casualties among nations. I don't know that the Gulf War is a good comparison. To be honest, the Iraqi's didn't have as great a chance of causing casualties as Germany did to the US in WWII, so of course the ratio would go up. Anyhow, I have no objections to the info being there if it's verified that it's significantly higher than most other countries' performances (or lack thereof). --Rgamble
    • The National Review lists a 1993 study of military hospital records for the wars from World War II to the Gulf War and mentions that the conclusion was a composite friendly fire rate of 15%. This is lower than any individual war estimate on the American Friendly Fire Notebook site which does not list its sources. Of course, the military always has its own motive for making itself look better. --rmhermen

Merge needed

This page needs to be merged with United States armed forces. IMHO, United States armed forces is a much better title of the page as that's a term people in the United States might actually use, but I understand there's been some sort of standardization here. DanKeshet 15:29, 17 September 2002 (UTC)

History/merged

The article whose history is now here (not sure where it was originally) was merged into the article now at Military of the United States, which is why the history is here now - because it was merged into the current article, we have to keep it accessible. Noel (talk) 02:05, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Numbers

"As of September 2007, U.S. troops were stationed at more than 820 installations in at least 39 countries" - this # might need checking since the US has bases in over 100 countries, and obviously has personel at all of them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.235.89.68 (talk) 04:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Women

"Women are not allowed to serve in some combat assignments, but they are allowed to serve in most non-combat specialties." Shouldn't homosexuals also be mentioned in the beginning? It's without a doubt very notable. Ran4 (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Gay people can serve in combat as long as they don't tell anyone they're gay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.160.104.150 (talk) 02:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Due to realities of war

Does the article really benefit from this section? Sure it has a source, but when I was reading it I saw it as a masked attempt to prove that females are equal to men regardless of their duties. Maybe I'm wrong, but by saying "due to the realities of war some of these non-combat positions see combat regularly" directly after the sentence that states females cannot serve in some combat positions seems to me like remarks made by a feminist or someone of that nature. I'm not saying females don't have the right to serve any and all combat positions, but does it need to be mentioned directly after? - as if to say "so there". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deftdrummer (talk • contribs) 04:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Someone should also name the reasoning behind not allowing females to serve. I know why but I don't have a source and was wondering if someone was willing the find one. The reason is that commanders are afraid that if men and women fight side by side and the woman falls the men will stop fighting to try to save the women. Althought this theory has been somewhat disproved by the Isreali military forces.Whodoesntlovemonkeys (talk) 05:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

And of course it has nothing to do with the physical differences between men and women, right? Your average man will be able to carry an 80 pound pack quite a bit farther than your average women. I'm by no means being sexist, but sometimes people have to wake up and smell the roses.

Exactly. I know it is not often but hand-to-hand fights in combat do happen, and when you pit a 110-140 pound woman against a 160-200 pound man who looks at women like they're property, wants them removed from the Earth anyway since they are infadels, and would be utterly disgraced if he lost to one, it is kind of obvious who would win. I have read stories of soldiers in Iraq who have gotten too close for comfort with insurgents. One of them involved a US soldier having to choke one to death, he did not carry a knife, but the point still remains. Unless that insurgent was a child, the US soldier would likely have died had it been a woman.Prussian725 (talk) 03:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

If that's the reasoning, it would make more sense to have an ability test, rather than a gender test. There are certainly strong women who can handle not-so-strong men in hand-to-hand combat. The problem with the gender test is that more-qualified women will be replaced by less-qualified men, which is why gender discrimination is unfair and unwise. -- Beland (talk) 03:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Take an average woman and and average man and place them in a hand-to-hand fight to the death and see who wins.Prussian725 (talk) 18:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Due to the realities of stereotyping, some of these Discussion pages see gender-based discrimination regularly. Whether or not the military allows women to do these jobs is not up to Wikipedia editors. 216.167.172.78 (talk) 06:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Guard and Reserves

Maybe this article should give some mention to the Reserves, The National Guards, and even the State Guards (more than a link at the bottom of the page). They are all "Armed Forces", and of the United States - even though they may not officially get mentioned as part of the 4/5 services. Official classifications don't matter much when compiling an encyclopedia, and the article is talking about the 'Military' in general. - Matthew238 (talk) 03:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The Reserves and National Guards are components of their respective military branches and are not a seperate service. Both are listed in the main articles of each individual branch. Neovu79 (talk) 08:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

"National Guards" and "State Guards." There's no difference, and no such terminology as "State Guards." There's the Army, the reserve component, and the National Guard component, which during peace-time as a branch of the state in question but can be federalized and placed under active Army. Jersey John (talk) 15:30, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, some states do have a "State Guard" that is separate from the National Guard.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Defense_Force

66.108.243.166 (talk) 21:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)Moi

Recently added claim

I removed the following which was added anonymously in an inappropriate place, making the article somewhat unreadable, and arguably unbalancing the coverage. Could those involved in this article please evaluate it, and put it in the right place if it is deemed appropriate?

A U.S. Marine was arrested on Monday on suspicion of raping a 14-year-old girl in Okinawa Prefecture, drawing immediate outrage from the governor that is spreading across the prefecture. Similar incidents have been happening frequently since U.S. occupied Japan in 1945. In 1995, three U.S. servicemen, U.S. Navy Seaman Marcus Gill and U.S. Marines Rodrico Harp and Kendrick Ledet, all from Camp Hansen on Okinawa, raped a 12-years-old schoolgirl by turns.

References: New York Times and CNN

Thanks. --RobertG ♬ talk 09:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

POV

"The United States military is often considered the most powerful and influential military in history." As was already discussed before it is quite difficult to count an army's power, because a lot of research and new technological achievements is kept secret. From the amount money that flows into the US military one cannot conclude that it is the most powerful striking force in the world. The referenced article does not give proof to the statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.47.226.141 (talk) 21:57, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I actually agree. I originally added the word "often", but I can see how this is still an opinion. --SLi (talk) 23:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyone have a better example? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.161.58 (talk) 05:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Give me a break. I'm going to guess all someone would have to do is just look up hegemony and there will be plenty of references for the U.S. military, in the present, being considered one of the most dominant of its time/ever. Lawyer2b (talk) 04:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Hyperpower, if not Superpower would also probably good places to start looking for sources. Lawyer2b (talk) 04:29, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Then go find reliable sources for that. Vague assertions like this are most definitely POV. Even better, say that it's the most expensive (or most funded or whatever). Believe or not, not everybody thinks the US army is the most powerful in the world, although such ideas might be unheard of in the US. It's definitely an opinion and therefore should not be there, at least not without attributing it to specific knowledgeable and reliable experts. --SLi (talk) 10:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I would certainly love to know what military you believe is the most powerful and influential in the history of the world if not the United States'. Believe it or not, there are some people who believe the world is flat, that does not make their opinion valid. Aside from the point that it is self evident that the United States military is the most powerful and influential in history (in terms of sheer force and logistics- Think force projection: carrier groups, nuclear ballistic submarines), you can look at how other countries have modeled their militaries after the American military and you can also look at how many countries have been trained specifically by U.S. forces. The United States Military budget dwarfs that of the next 9 on the list combined. This is not a POV, this is a fact. Maybe in your POV the United States does not have the most powerful military, but in reality it does. The claim that such a point cannot be made because of "secret" capabilities is nothing short of hysterical. A.S. Williams (talk) 14:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any opinion myself on the issue, except that it is not a WP:Fact but a WP:Opinion. There certainly are credible arguments for considering e.g. the Chinese or Russian, or even British or French military the most powerful currently in existence. I do have a strong opinion that historically the Roman military was more influential than the US one. Anyway, all this is beside the point, which is that it is a non-measurable WP:Opinion. From that article:

In articles about works of art, games, TV series and other subjects without estimable values, Wiki editors will often try to pass on POV opinions by writing under a pseudonym, e.g., "some fans think the New York Yankees are the greatest baseball players ever". Unless you can provide a survey, a review or any similar type of source for your praise, it does not belong in a Wikipedia article. The correct way to phrase the sentence would be: "The Yankees are Major League Baseball's most successful franchise with 26 World Series championships".

I would like to hear your credible argument for how the British/French militaries could be considered the most powerful in existence. Gotta love wikipedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.49.133.78 (talk) 09:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Whether it's the strongest one is entirely beside the point. The article should refrain from stating opinions and just present the facts. See WP:NPOV#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves. --SLi (talk) 16:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The fact is that many DO believe the United States to have the most powerful military. It [the article] never claimed that have the largest military, rather the most powerful. For instance, a 6'8" person can have his butt whupped by someone who's nearly a foot shorter than he because the shorter person has experience, training and discipline. Same can be said of the military. We may have fewer soldiers but we have the most advanced weapons, training and disciplined men and women. This is why the article originally and correctly stated that 'many consider the United States military to be the strongest in the world.' 67.142.162.36 (talk) 14:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC)Bobb

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.

It is not sufficient to discuss an opinion as fact merely by stating "some people believe...", a practice referred to as "mass attribution". A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is. --WP:V

Let the facts speak for themselves.

Weasel words are words or phrases that seemingly support statements without attributing opinions to verifiable sources. They give the force of authority to a statement without letting the reader decide whether the source of the opinion is reliable. If a statement can't stand on its own without weasel words, it lacks neutral point of view; either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed.

For example, "Houston is the nicest city in the world," is a biased or normative statement. Application of a weasel word can give the illusion of neutral point of view: "Some people say Houston is the nicest city in the world." --WP:WEASEL

See? --SLi (talk) 21:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Inter-Service Rilvalry Evident in Article

There is clear inter-service rivalry evident in this article. If all the service branches were listed alphabetically, the order would not be as it stands in the article currently.

Instead the listed order would be: Air Force, Army, Coast Guard, Marines and Navy. Sean7phil (talk) 01:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The armed services are always listed (and march) in order of precedence, not alphabetically. See comments on Order of Precedence below. --67.133.117.210 (talk) 23:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Personal

"Battlefield commission - enlisted personnel who have skills that separate them from their peers can become officers if an overseeing general/commander feels such a promotion is appropriate/necessary. This type of commission is rarely granted and is reserved only for the most exceptional enlisted personnel, and it is done on an ad hoc basis, typically only in wartime. No direct battlefield commissions have been awarded since the Vietnam War. The Air Force and Navy do not employ this commissioning path."

This is not true, 3 US Marines have received a battlefield commission in the Iraq War —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.69.76.164 (talk) 18:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Precedence of U.S. Armed Forces

There is a precedence of order to displaying the service branches and service academies of the United States. This general rule also applies when marching (i.e., the Presidential inauguration) or listing the service branches of the United States. This order of precedence was established by the Department of Defense, not separately by each service branch.

The reason behind the order is based on the date in which the organizations came into being as far as the service branches and service academices respectively. The Army being the oldest service branch and the Air Force being the youngest. A Secretary of the Navy established the Marine Corps before the Navy during the 1800s even though the Navy's birthday is before the Marines.

• The Department of Defense regulation can be found on DoD Directive 1005.8, October 31, 1977 and also in law at Title 10, United States Code, Section 133.
• The U.S. Army regulation can be found at AR 840-10, 1 November 1998.
• The U.S. Marine Corps regulation can be found NAVMC 2691, Marine Corps Drill and Ceremonies Manual, Part II, Ceremonies, Chapter 12-1.
• The U.S. Navy regulation can be found at U.S. Navy Regulations, Chapter 12, Flags, Pennants, Honors, Ceremonies and Customs.
• The U.S. Air Force regulation can be found at AFMAN 36-2203, Drill and Ceremonies, 3 June 1996, Chapter 7, Section A.

2–5. Order of precedence of flags The following is the order of precedence of flags:

(1) Cadets, United States Military Academy
(2) Midshipmen, United States Naval Academy
(3) Cadets, United States Air Force Academy
(4) Cadets, United States Coast Guard Academy
(5) Midshipmen, United States Merchant Marine Academy
(6) United States Army
(7) United States Marine Corps
(8) United States Navy
(9) United States Air Force
(10) United States Coast Guard
(11) Army National Guard of the United States
(12) Army Reserve
(13) Marine Corps Reserve
(14) Naval Reserve
(15) Air National Guard of the United States
(16) Air Force Reserve
(17) Coast Guard Reserve
(18) Other training organizations of the Army, Marine Corps,
Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard, in that order, respectively.

A great example of where you see this display of all service branches, including the Merchant Marines is during the Presidential Inauguration.

-Signaleer (talk) 13:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: Signaleer provided the basic information above. I made changes to his comment above based on further information from Signaleer which he provided below under #Why so short. I am going to further provide a hidden comment on the article page so that hopefully we don't have to see any more discussion on order of precedence. Thanks Signaleer! Don'tKnowItAtAll (talk) 16:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Why is this so short?

When I came to this article I was looking for something more along the lines of, say, the russian military article or the chinese military article, which are long and rich with history and time lines and what not. Instead I find a really short article with no real history or events. Is there somewhere else I can go for a good article on the US military?12.24.60.12 (talk) 22:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Great question, there obviously was a major overhaul of this article and a lot of pertinent information was removed. In other concerns, the fourth paragraph:

"Much of U.S. military capability is involved in logistics and transportation, which enable rapid buildup of forces as needed. The Air Force maintains a large fleet of C-5 Galaxy, C-17 Globemaster, and C-130 Hercules transportation aircraft with a substantial fleet of aerial refueling tankers. The Marine Corps maintains Marine Expeditionary Units at sea with the Navy's Atlantic and Pacific Fleets. The Navy's 11 active aircraft carriers, combined with a military doctrine of power projection, enables a flexible response to potential threats."

This paragraph does not flow with the rest of the article, especially to mention it in the opening section where it is supposed to give the viewer a wholeistic approach or snapshot of the topic and logistics and transporation doesn't fit in the big picture. Signaleer (talk) 15:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

All of the individual US military service articles are very long, with very detailed histories. I'm not sure how much could be added here without being totally redundant to those pages. But I'm open to seeing what can be suggested. - BillCJ (talk) 08:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I reverted multiple edits on 14 Aug 08 by User:216.59.254.151 who deleted whole sections without explanation or discussion. That would explain why it is so short. Don'tKnowItAtAll (talk) 14:13, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Great work, much appreciated. Although there are many users who still contend to put the U.S. Navy before the U.S. Marine Corps when listing service branches (USA, USMC, USN, USAF and USCG). -Signaleer (talk) 17:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. BTW, the source you cite elsewhere within this talk page concerning order of precedence is an Army Reg that does not necessarily apply to the other services. Is there a corresponding DoD reg or something in the CFR or USC that would answer the same question? That might resolve the issue once and for all. Well, maybe not since I don't think that most people read the talk pages. LOL Anyway ... food for thought. Don'tKnowItAtAll (talk) 20:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The Department of Defense can be found on DoD Directive 1005.8, October 31, 1977 and Title 10, United States Code, Section 133. The U.S. Navy can be found at U.S. Navy Regulations, Chapter 12, Flags, Pennants, Honors, Ceremonies and Customs. The U.S. Marine Corps can be found NAVMC 2691, Marine Corps Drill and Ceremonies Manual, Part II, Ceremonies, Chapter 12-1. The Air Force can be found at AFMAN 36-2203, Drill and Ceremonies, 3 June 1996, Chapter 7, Section A. This order of precedence was established by the Department of Defense, not separately by each service branch. Yes, this regulation applies to all service branches, not just the United States Army. A great example of where you see this display of all service branches, including the Merchant Marines is during the Presidential Inauguration. A Secretary of the Navy established the Marine Corps before the Navy during the 1800s even though the Navy's birthday is before the Marines. -Signaleer (talk) 00:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Coast Guard and Homeland Security

Coast Guard is no longer part of the Uniformed Military Services (Department of Defense) it's now part of Homeland Security - should it be removed from this page or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.116.10.12 (talk) 19:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Per the second paragragh of the article: The Coast Guard falls under the authority of the Department of Homeland Security during peacetime, but during wartime, the Coast Guard is placed under the Department of Defense through the Department of the Navy.

Before Homeland Security was established, the USCG was part of the Transportation Department, and the Treasury Dept. before that, but t still came under the USN in time of war. There are actually seven United States Uniformed Services (2 are non-military), and they are in 4 Departments. Hope that helps to clarify things. - BillCJ (talk) 04:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Considering it is signed into law, that the Coast Guard is a military service, maybe you should contact your congressman and see if you could get that law changed. "The United States Coast Guard has both military and law enforcement functions. 14 USC 1, states "The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times." Coast Guard units, or ships of its predecessor service, the Revenue Cutter Service, have seen combat in every war and armed conflict of the United States since 1790, including the U.S. occupation of Iraq." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.121.17.2 (talk) 09:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)