Talk:Lyra Belacqua

Untitled

Can we merge this with the Lyra Silvertongue entry?

"a false deity called The Authority."? Well, The Authority's supremacy over other Angels is only through his claims that he created them, and that he was the first (and most powerful?) of Angels. Nevertheless, he is God: it is just that Asriel and certain Angels (Baruch, et al.) (and Pullman?) challenge traditional theories of theology. I think this should be "God (known as The Authority)" linking to both. --Taejo 16:46, 31 July 2005 (UTC) No, he is not a God, that is stated. If he were a God, he woudl be more powerful than the angels and would presumably have the powers of a God; he does not posses these abilities. He is an entity of the same type as the other angels, he just happens to be the first. He did not create the universe, he posseses no abilities greater than the angels, adn the novels make it pretty clear he is not god.

Is there a reason why Pullman named Lyra the way he did? There is a constellation in astronomy termed Lyra or Apollo's Lyre, which is meant to symbolise harmony and moderation so approved of by the followers of Apollo. Lyra restored harmony to the world by preventing the catastrophic destruction of Dust within the Abyss through her love to Will. Could this possibly be the reason of Lyra's naming? --User:Luthinya 31 October 2005

Is it too obvious to suggest that Lyra is so-named because "Lyra" sounds like "liar"? Pullman makes several references throughout the series to Lyra's natural facility for falsehood. -- Dominus 06:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

These are both original research; the novels do not provide enough evidence for either theory, so unless we can get evidence from Pullman, we should not include these.

Lyra's original second name

Is it ever mentioned where Lyra's original second name Belacqua came from and does it have any deeper meaning. Presumably she should be Lyra Coulter or Lyra Asriel? Also if Lord Asriel claimed to be her uncle why did she have a different second name?

If Lord Asriel claimed to be her uncle, she wouldn't necessarily of had the same surname as him because he could of said to be related to her via her mother rather than her father. Sotakeit 20:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The book identifies her initially as Belaqua, later as Silvertongue. I'll get a reference when I have time this week on why Silvertongue should be regarded as her name. The delay in its appearance (near the end of the first novel) is consistent with Renaissance allegory. In any case, this 'true name' of hers is not an alias like Lizzie or Lisa, disposable names that she quickly generates to hide her identity. So I've changed the infobox accordingly. Best, Anthony Krupp (talk) 15:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

She would have been Lyra Coulter if Asriel hadn't made up the story of her being Count Belacqua's daughter. Mdiamante (talk) 01:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if it is possible that there is a Dante reference here. Belaqua is a minor character in the Divine Comedy. Also there is Dante's leopard and Lord Asriel's. Far fetches probably but perhaps Phillip Pullman ranged farther than just MIlton and Blake. comment left by JacobRafferty

We do note the coincidence, we can't go beyond that to draw any inference or conclusions as to why, it's very possible PP just liked the name. Pincrete (talk) 14:56, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Pictures

Why hasn't anybody placed some images of Lyra and Pantalaimon from the covers up yet? I'll certainly try to. --Arcuneh Meeps 02:21, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The Betrayals

There are 3 potential betrayals involved in the HDM series, 1 in Northern Lights and 2 in Amber Spyglass. List of Betrayals: Northern Lights- Taking Roger to Lord Asriel The Amber Spyglass- Crossing the river of the dead without Pantalaimon The Amber Spyglass- Letting Will leave the window into the land of the dead open, as this prevents them from ever being able to leave a window open between their own worlds. However, this allows them to rejoin their Daemons and each other when they have left the world of the dead.

Also, with the explanation that Xaphania gave as to how they could travel between universes using the power of imagination, this last 'betrayal' could potentially be negated by Lyra's learning of how to use the Alethiometer, as Xaphania states that it works in a similar way to how the angels travel across universes. (Page 223 I believe, English version 'The Amber Spyglass')

Maybe a small chapter or so with Lyra and Will meeting again in Book of Dust? What do you think?

No. I think that Phillip Pullman specifically stated he is not going to bring them back together.

Same page as Pantalaimon

This is nearly the exact same page. Can we merge the two together or something? Ryuko2001 01:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm a moron, It is the exact same page Ryuko2001 01:34, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Betrayal

Leaving the window in the land of the dead does not count as a betryal, who does she betray? Neither does crossing the river without pantalaimon she still had a choice in the matter. Therefore her betrayal is only roger, who she kills.

~~ The book makes it quite clear that leaving Pan when she enters the world of the dead is the "betrayal" which is referred to. This is the only time she knowingly and voluntarily betrays anyone, and it's a betrayal of her own external soul. As I read the books (and I've read this saga three times at least), this knowing betrayal is the crucial choice she makes, literally sacrificing "herself", in more ways than one, in exchange for her promise to Roger. It's what permits her to enter the world of the dead, eventually freeing them, to lay the foundation for her own destiny of falling in love and then finally realizing it, and expressing that love, to Will. I never thought I'd be interested in a love story between two 12 year olds, but this is an incredible love story.

I personally think that Lyra is perhaps the most appealing character in the history of fiction. Every decent person in the entire saga who meets her comes to love her, and I think most readers love her, too. She just captures your heart, no matter your age or gender, and wears her own heart on her sleeve; so when she feels, and expresses her feelings, you are totally involved with her. She "is" the saga, as a practical matter. The entire appeal of this amazing story, no matter how imaginative and well-written, rests on the slender shoulders of this young girl, and how readers react to her. It's no surprise that they interviewed 10,000 girls to try to find Lyra. Pullman's creation of Lyra is an imaginative masterpiece in every respect, as is the daemon concept. This book is so moving in several scenarios as to bring tears to one's eyes, culminating in that moment when she raises the fruit to Will's lips. 69.221.3.108 04:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Bob69.221.3.108 04:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually I had a bit of trouble identifying with her; I certainly didn't cry at any stages in the novel (admittedly no story ever has this effect on me, as usually I only read for fun). Whilst there are obviously worse characters out there, she's a bit of a goody-goody after a little while; I identified with mary the most, she being more like me (I can really see exactly how she was feeling when she converted to atheis, and so on, having done it myself). I will admit that I enjoyed the whole adventure thing more, as well as the detials on the war between Asriel and heaven, that being the sort of thing I am interested in; although I don't generally enjoy stereotyped cliche stuff, I can't really remain interested in a story if the characters/themes are the only thing to go on (something which has led me to thoroughly enjoy stuff by a few authors that not everyone does). I actually find it extremely difficult to think in the way you are doing now, I just don't process information in that way (I am a bit of a maths-science person, who doesn't really think in philosophical terms- ever). The last time I attempted it was when I had to write an English essay, and even then I only did it in terms of what we'd discussed in class and the message of whatever the text was, but it takes effort for me, certainly not something that I will do automatically. I can see where we differ in this respect: you would say "this scene is beautiful, it brings tears to your eyes". I would say "this scene is awesome, that guy go owned, ha ha"/"this scene is awesome, man this [insert object, weapon, event, or thing I like] is cool". It's funny, really- we can both enjoy a masterwork like HDM so thoroughly- in utterly different ways. I think I better mention now that we're not really supposed to be discussing this sort of thin on a page like this; these pages are only supposed to be about improving the article, but this conversation was already here and I couldn't really resist. But yeah, even though I'm hardly in a position to talk, we shouldn't really be discussing this here.

On the matter of altering the subject matter, it explicitly says in the stories that the betrayal is of Pantalaimon and is not ambigous (it is said directly by the author, not by any characters), so I odn't think we should make any changes to that.211.30.132.2 13:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

actually the line in spyglass is something like (and i paraphrase liberally)'the prediction that the master had made came true that she would commit a great betrayal and it would hurt her' the hurt they are referring to is obvious, i.e. being seperated from the daemon, but the betrayal could be seen as being the betrayal of roger whose death was the reason she was journeying to the land of the dead in the first place.

Pantalaimon's Voice

The page for The Golden Compass says that Freddie Highmore provides the voice of Pantalaimon, but this page says that it is Daniel Radcliff. Whice one of these is correct?

Ooh. I'll look into that.211.30.132.2 13:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely Freddie Highmore. IceUnshattered (talk) 23:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The correct cloud pine branch?

"will be able pick the correct cloud pine branch"

I haven't read the books, but have read the summary on this page and the His Dark Materials page; this reference to the branch doesn't seem to be explained anywhere, what does it mean? Natebailey 11:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

When Lyra meets the witches' representative, he asks her to pick out the cloud pine branch which was used by (I think Sarafina Pekkala), a witch queen Lyra has never met, thoug she's heard of her. She does it almost instantly and efforlessly, which is part of a prophecy the witches have (though I don't recall the precise details), and it identifies her as the child of that prophecy (which is hundreds of years old). That's a great passage in the novel. You knew before that she was something special, but this revelation and the prose really drives it home and fires your curiosity. 69.221.3.108 04:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Bob69.221.3.108

Well doesn't she just ask the alethiomter which one it is? That's how she's able to find it so quickly, just because she can read the thing.Rglong 22:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes she does just read it, nothing particularly special there. The only particularly important thing about it is the fact that it was prophesised that the second eve would be the one who found it. It doesn't signify anything mroe than that, it's just another example of the protagonist of a story doing some random thing which happens to fit with the prophecy.

"Just reading it" is what marks her as special. No one can "just read" an alethiometer -- except the young Lyra. And even she loses the ability as she matures. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Spelling?

Shouldn't British spelling be used in an article like this? It's not a big deal, but as Pullman is British, the book is British and Lyra is British (okay, Brytish!) spellings like "theater" and "blond" grate very slightly. 81.153.111.37 (talk) 00:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

As I understand the spelling policy, this article and all of the Pullman related articles should most definitely use British spelling. Dfmclean (talk) 15:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you're correct, but I'm too lazy to look through it ^^;;. But if I see anything I'll correct it. IceUnshattered (talk) 23:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Alice?

It may be because I haven't read the books for a while, but I don't remember anything about Alice being one of Lyra's aliases? The fan site hisdarkmaterials.org has a section about Lyra, and it doesn't mention Alice as one of Lyra's aliases. Can anyone please tell me where it comes from? --Annerpapaya (talk) 21:16, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

She only used it briefly once. In the first book, she ran away from Mrs Coulter and was approached by a guy in a shop who bought her a coffee. She told him her name was Alice and that her dad was a murderer. On most other occasions, she called herself Lizzie. George.millman (talk) 16:00, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Origin

At Philip-Pullman.com, PP says that Lyra was based off of a character from one of his favorite childhood books. Should that be an addition to the article or not? -- Unknown —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.209.4.3 (talk) 23:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Movie pictures

I think that pictures of the actors from the films should be in the adaptations section of the article, not the infobox, in the manner of Lord of the Rings characters (Elrond, Frodo, etc.) I know that the Harry Potter characters have the film actors in the infoboxes, and while I don't agree with that either, I'm more interested in HDM. Besides, while Rowling has been fairly involved with the HP movies, some of which were made while her books were being written, Pullman (though he did advise the TGC crew) has been much more explicit about not confusing the movie with the books. Viz:

I think the story will survive. I would be sorry if there was a law which said every time a film comes out the book or books on which it was based had to be withdrawn. As James M Cain replied when asked if he minded what had been done to one of his books: 'They've done nothing to my book, it's there on the shelf.'[1]

[Pullman] was keen never to be officially employed by the film company: "It means I can tell them to bugger off."[2]

Not to mention the fact that it looks as though we won't have any Will Parry performance to match with the other principal characters.

HP aside, HDM, like LotR is first and foremost a literary work. Putting one adaptation's pictures in infoboxes is therefore, IMO, inappropriate.Mdiamante (talk) 13:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Betrayal

The article states this "She fulfills her destiny to "bring an end to death" by leading the ghosts out of the world of the dead. Lyra's inevitable betrayal occurred when Lyra leads Roger to Lord Asriel on Svalbard at the end of the first book, in the chapter titled "Betrayal".". However I haven't read the books in a while (but I have read them many times) and I'm pretty sure the betrayal that they are talking about that brings an end to death is when she leaves pantalimon on the shores while she crosses into the world of the dead in the Amber spyglass. I actually believe at that part there is a sentence in there that says something along the lines of "at this point she completed the part of the prophecy that she will make a great betrayal". Unfortunately like I said I don't have my copy of the Amber spyglass as I'm at school right now. Could someone check that for me. SirGrant (talk) 22:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Birth date

How the heck can we have a year of birth for a fictional character from a fictional world? Murderbike (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Whats wrong with knowing when a character was born? We know that Harry Potter was born in 1980 for example. It's just a nice piece of addisional information so we know how old the characters would be now.194.81.189.21 (talk) 13:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing "wrong" with it, when an author states it. But as far as I know, the author never states when Lyra was born, hence the speculation in the article. This is UNencyclopedic. Murderbike (talk) 00:27, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it says that Lyra is about 12 years old at the beginning of the trilogy but it doesn't say what the year is, so any specific year of birth would be debatable. LovesMacs (talk) 01:12, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Murderbike (talk) 01:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Pantalaimon - origin of the name

The article states that Pantalaimon is named for the Orthodox Saint Pantaleon, but no reference is cited. Considering how widely read Pullman is (from what interviews I've heard), then I'd strongly consider the alternative hypothesis that Pullman named Pantalaimon for the renamed "Battleship Potemkin" (of the film, the rebellion, the mythical stairs massacre etc.) after it's outlaw jaunt around the Black Sea. Of course, that name also traces back to the same Orthodox saint. But given Pan's frequent "bolshiness" and rebellious attitude to Lyra when she's doing something wrong ... I wouldn't be surprised if Pullman hadn't been aware of the connection. There's little chance of validating this speculation without word from Pullman himself, but it's something to put into any interview question sets for the man. you never know ...

Aidan Karley (talk) 20:54, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Fixed, Pantalaimon is actually a fairly common Gk name and there is no reason the St. was the inspiration for this naming.Pincrete (talk) 14:58, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Another Redirect

I found the Stoneheart trilogy which contains the novel Silvertongue in Wikipedia, and was going to make a Redirect page for Silvertongue, but that brought me here. I am in complete agreement that Lyra Belacqua is overwhelmingly more important then the novel. Nonetheless, now the top of this page is in danger of getting cluttered with redirects to the other pages. Is there any feeling that the Silvertongue redirect page should become a disambiguation page? The disambiguation page would have three items: this page, the Dante character, and the children's novel. Nick Beeson (talk) 11:57, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Neutral, I'm not sure if there is a guideline about this, but present situation is just about sustainable. Pincrete (talk) 23:46, 18 May 2019 (UTC)