Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of famous Holocaust survivors
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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was - kept - SimonP 00:02, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Not encyclopedic
- Delete - Millions of people did not die in the holocaust. This list is far too vague by nature and - at worst - can end up being a list of almost everyone in the world who was alive in 1946. --Douglas
- How is this vague? Merely being alive in 1946 doesn't mean you survived the Holocaust – managing to survive encarceration in a Nazi concentration camp, or to escape from
GermanyNazi-controlled territory before you were so imprisoned does. Of those that did, some are notable, and we have an interesting list. Keep, but suggest a move to List of notable Holocaust survivors. AиDя01DTALKEMAIL 03:01, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)- It is vague in that it is not restricted to those who 'survived a Nazi concentration camp' (if it were, the title should say so) nor is it simply those who managed 'to escape from Germany before you were so imprisoned'. Even if those definitions are taken, it is questionable as to whether someone who was not incarcerated would have been. Why only restrict it to anyone who escaped from Germany - what about those who escaped from other countries the Nazis overran during 30s and 40s? Why only those who escaped from countries that were overrun - what about countries that would have been overrun if the Nazis had not been stopped by force (UK, Africa, Russia, Ireland, Iceland, Canada, USA ...)? --Douglas 12:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Alright, let's change Germany to Nazi-controlled territories, which is what I should have said in the first place. Regarding countries that would have been overrun, that's absurd. The Nazis had a clearly definable sphere of influence during WW2, at least AFAIK. We could play this what-if game with just about any historical event to make any discussion vague and pointless. It seems to me your beef is with the title of the article and not the content. To me, "Holocaust survivors" connotes a clear meaning; to you, it does not. Perhaps a compromise would be to include a detailed explanation for criteria for inclusion in the list at the beginning of the article. List of people who escaped Nazi concentration camps, managed to survive in such camps long enough to await rescue by Allied forces, or were able to escape Nazi-controlled territory before being encarcerated is a rather unwieldy article title.
- LOL, I agree with the unwieldiness of that title! However, I still think that including those who were able to escape Nazi-controlled territory before being incarcerated is far too vague and could include almost anyone who got out of the way - since they were almost targets just because they wanted to escape. Such a definition would include, for example, Albert Einstein and dozens (hundreds?) of other 'notable' scientists as well as thousands of political, military and society 'notables'. The Nazis sphere of influence is not so clear to define in terms of Holocaust implementation: in some regions (e.g. Norway, Channel Islands), they never quite achieved the political/military/social environment necessary even though they 'occupied' the land while in other areas (e.g. Spain and to some extent Italy) they had quite a lot of influence without occupation. This is not to say, however, that there is not a generally-accepted map of what territories were at some time Nazi-controlled. I also see no moral, ethical or encyclopedic reason to include those who avoided incarceration by fleeing and exclude those who avoided incarceration by fighting. --Douglas 15:06, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I'll defer to your greater knowledge of the general topic. Would a list limited to those that survived and/or escaped from concentration camps be more keep-able? I would imagine that the list would be mostly populated with people of this sort, anyway (although I do note that at least one person on the list currently was never sent to a camp). AиDя01DTALKEMAIL 15:42, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
- A list of people who were once in a concentration camp and survived would be restricted and have some meaning. In this case, it should be Renamed and edited to comply: I would suggest the name of "List of notable people to survive a Nazi Concentration Camp." --Douglas 23:51, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I'll defer to your greater knowledge of the general topic. Would a list limited to those that survived and/or escaped from concentration camps be more keep-able? I would imagine that the list would be mostly populated with people of this sort, anyway (although I do note that at least one person on the list currently was never sent to a camp). AиDя01DTALKEMAIL 15:42, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
- Your point about playing the what-if game with historical events is, to me, exactly WHY to delete rather than keep this list. This list IS about 'what if': what if these people had been captured, maybe they would be dead. --Douglas 15:10, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I'm really not getting your point here. If, say, Mr. Jones hadn't gotten on your hypothetical sinking ship from your analogy below, maybe he wouldn't have drowned. The fact is, though, he's (hypothetically) dead, and that other people who were not on the ship, but potentially could have been on it, are not (leaving aside those that were on the ship but managed to not die). We can make a list of those that survived and one of those that died; what happened before the ship sank is rather irrelevant. AиDя01DTALKEMAIL 15:42, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
- But presumably Mr Jones DID get on the ship. From the single, identifiable incident he can be said to have survived or died as fact. The Holocaust is not such a single, identifiable incident. --Douglas 23:51, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I'm really not getting your point here. If, say, Mr. Jones hadn't gotten on your hypothetical sinking ship from your analogy below, maybe he wouldn't have drowned. The fact is, though, he's (hypothetically) dead, and that other people who were not on the ship, but potentially could have been on it, are not (leaving aside those that were on the ship but managed to not die). We can make a list of those that survived and one of those that died; what happened before the ship sank is rather irrelevant. AиDя01DTALKEMAIL 15:42, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
- LOL, I agree with the unwieldiness of that title! However, I still think that including those who were able to escape Nazi-controlled territory before being incarcerated is far too vague and could include almost anyone who got out of the way - since they were almost targets just because they wanted to escape. Such a definition would include, for example, Albert Einstein and dozens (hundreds?) of other 'notable' scientists as well as thousands of political, military and society 'notables'. The Nazis sphere of influence is not so clear to define in terms of Holocaust implementation: in some regions (e.g. Norway, Channel Islands), they never quite achieved the political/military/social environment necessary even though they 'occupied' the land while in other areas (e.g. Spain and to some extent Italy) they had quite a lot of influence without occupation. This is not to say, however, that there is not a generally-accepted map of what territories were at some time Nazi-controlled. I also see no moral, ethical or encyclopedic reason to include those who avoided incarceration by fleeing and exclude those who avoided incarceration by fighting. --Douglas 15:06, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Alright, let's change Germany to Nazi-controlled territories, which is what I should have said in the first place. Regarding countries that would have been overrun, that's absurd. The Nazis had a clearly definable sphere of influence during WW2, at least AFAIK. We could play this what-if game with just about any historical event to make any discussion vague and pointless. It seems to me your beef is with the title of the article and not the content. To me, "Holocaust survivors" connotes a clear meaning; to you, it does not. Perhaps a compromise would be to include a detailed explanation for criteria for inclusion in the list at the beginning of the article. List of people who escaped Nazi concentration camps, managed to survive in such camps long enough to await rescue by Allied forces, or were able to escape Nazi-controlled territory before being encarcerated is a rather unwieldy article title.
- It is vague in that it is not restricted to those who 'survived a Nazi concentration camp' (if it were, the title should say so) nor is it simply those who managed 'to escape from Germany before you were so imprisoned'. Even if those definitions are taken, it is questionable as to whether someone who was not incarcerated would have been. Why only restrict it to anyone who escaped from Germany - what about those who escaped from other countries the Nazis overran during 30s and 40s? Why only those who escaped from countries that were overrun - what about countries that would have been overrun if the Nazis had not been stopped by force (UK, Africa, Russia, Ireland, Iceland, Canada, USA ...)? --Douglas 12:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- How is this vague? Merely being alive in 1946 doesn't mean you survived the Holocaust – managing to survive encarceration in a Nazi concentration camp, or to escape from
- The discussion at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of Holocaust victims is probably relevant here. Uncle G 02:51, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)
- It is partially relevant but at least someone who died as a direct result of Nazi activity is much more identifiable, with the only possible grey area being whether that was the cause of death (for example, there were no doubt a few people incarcerated who were already near dead from other causes). --Douglas 12:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep - a Holocaust survivor is surely not anyone who happened not to die during WWII, and the list is restricted to famous (agreed that it should be moved to "notable") persons. -- BD2412 talk 04:15, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)
- When I originally saw this article a couple of hours ago I moved it to its current title from "List of holocaust survivors" but I agree that notable is a better word. Keep. Also, Douglas, isn't it inherently obvious that a list of survivors of a horrific event is only going to be comprised of people who were directly affected by that event? --Barfooz (talk) 04:39, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- No, clearly not obvious - see above comment by AиDя01D. Surviving the Holocaust isn't like surviving a sinking ship, where you are either on the ship at the time or not. The Holocaust was a political/social program intended to cover all parts of the world that Nazis intended to take over. --Douglas 12:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Strong keep, though both this and List of famous Holocaust victims need to be renamed as "notable," with "famous" as redirects. Nateji77 05:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep as list of notable Holocaust survivors. Verifiable list for encyclopedic topic. Capitalistroadster 05:53, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. Note that this is a list of famous survivors. Notable list. Sjakkalle 07:11, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. A useful list Dvyost 07:39, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep per Nateji77. Karol 07:41, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
- Strong keep, though it should probably be "notable" rather than "famous" in the title. Every Holocaust survivor who has a Wikipedia entry should be on this list.--Pharos 08:36, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- At least this definition of "notable" or "famous" (whichever) will keep the list down but my objection to this list still stands in that identifying someone as a one-time member of a concentration camp is one thing but identifying them as having not been put to death by the Nazis is a totally different issue. --Douglas 12:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Move to Notable and keep --Irishpunktom\talk 09:35, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. Direct subjects of the holocaust who survived it are notable by a long shot. Jamyskis 11:08, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, but define survivor as a survivor of the camps. Hornplease 17:07, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. There are many people (eg Elie Wiesel, Primo Levi) for whom being a Holocaust survivor is a major component of their fame. But move to "notable". - Mustafaa 17:30, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Delete, same vote as before. Title is POV, article is impossible to maintain. RickK 19:19, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
- Delete as POV. Who defines famous? What constitutes a holocaust survivor? Is it limited to Jews, or are Gypsies, gays, political prisoners, Jehovah's Witnesses and the like also included? Is it limited to Germany or other occupied territories? Is it limited to those captured and placed in the camps or does it include those who managed to elude capture? A nice idea, but in my personal opinion, there are too many problems. --Scimitar 21:03, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Delete. POV, list subject is too vague to maintain. --Carnildo 21:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- keep this please it is not impossible Yuckfoo 21:46, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. Annotate the list. — Phil Welch 23:39, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. this list will never be hard to maintain, because the "famous," or if you prefer "notable," qualifier will always limit it to a relatively small number regardless of how one defines "Holocaust" and "survivor." carmeld1 00:11, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Comment my personal definition of a holocaust victim would not require having been in or died in the camps, that is, both Anne Frank and Walter Benjamin should be included (as they are on List of famous Holocaust victims). even if benjamin (suicide at a checkpoint) is debatable, i think most people would consider frank a holocaust victim. (and Rroma, blacks, communists, homosexuals, etc. would be included on these lists if deemed notable). Nateji77 12:33, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Agreed. One of the minor difficulties I see with this list that I've not highlighted is that people such as Albert Einstein, T.Wonja Michael, Anne Frank etc. belong on both the List of famous Holocaust victims and this list. That doesn't invalidate either but does highlight the vague definitions - of this list, especially. --Douglas 14:45, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Delete "Famous" is an inherently POV term, and even notability is arguable. I cannot see how an encyclopedic list can be created under such circumstances. Denni☯ 00:55, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
- "Notability" is just the criterion for having an article on a particular subject in Wikipedia. Listing all Holocaust survivors who have articles means that there is no more "judgement" involved than is normally used in simply deciding whether a subject is important enough to merit its own article in the first place.--Pharos 01:11, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Strong Keep. Extremely notable topic. Why is this even listed for VfD? Kaibabsquirrel 04:07, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Delete per RickK, Scimitar, and Denni. Use a category if this information is desired. Then you can leave "famous" out of it because it will include only those who have WP articles. Quale 09:57, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- keep, categories are not a substitute for annotated lists. Kappa 21:04, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep I brought forth the deletion page for List of Holocaust victims, and agreed with its name change to List of Famous Holocaust victims. Jendeyoung 05:21, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep -Its purpose is to exalt famous survivors of the holocaust. There is nothing wrong with that.
- It is not an encyclopedia's job to exalt anything. That is the job of propoganda. Exhalting something is a reason for edit or removal is it is inherently not NPOV. See Wikipedia is not a soapbox. --Douglas 00:38, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.