Talk:Good Friday prayer for the Jews

Title

The title of the page is misleading. After all there are many good Friday prayers in the Roman Rite, and the Easterners follow their own order. The page should be called "Good Friday Pray For the Jews" or something like that. Also note the change in Latin from "perfidus" to "perfidia." The "i" and the feminine make "perfidia" an abstract noun equivalent to "unbelief" or "faithlessness." But it was translated as "Who rejectest not even the faithless Jews," or something like that when it should have been "even Jewish (Iudaeicam) unbelief (perfidia)." I took it upon myself to make a quick correction of the language. I believe this is important. If someone has a better (accurate) correction, feel free to update it. But I think "dost not reject even the faithless Jews" is a poor an unacceptable translation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.61.105.201 (talk) 03:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Other orations

Is this article only about the controversial parts of the RC orations for Good Friday, or can the rest of the orations also be discussed?--WannabeRubrician 06:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Does any non-Catholic church use this prayer? Rmhermen 17:23 May 1, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, of course. There are many different forms of the Good Friday Prayer: I quoted two different forms used by the RC church. Jacquerie27 17:42 May 1, 2003 (UTC)

I think this article is far too narrow. In the Eastern Orthodox Church alone, we have three separate services scheduled for Great and Holy Friday, one in the forenoon, one in the afternoon, and one in the evening. These services are full of rich hymns, scripture readings, and yes, litanies.

The article isn't called the "Good Friday Rich Hymns, Scripture Readings, and Litanies", it's called "Good Friday Prayer", i.e. it's about the most important prayer used on Good Friday, one of the two or three most important days in the Christian calendar.

I'm sure there is also much more to the Roman Catholic prayers on Good Friday than this short excerpt from one of their litanies.

I've seen this argument used before: because it's short and it's used on a single day, it's unimportant. Well, there's "much more" to Christ's teaching than "Love thy neighbor as thyself", which is a "short excerpt" from the Gospels, but I don't think you'll argue that this makes it unimportant. Roman Catholicism has used thousands of prayers, but some are far more important than others. This is one of the most important prayers of all: not a Good Friday prayer, but the Good Friday Prayer. If you disagree and think calling the Jews "perfidious" and "blind" for 100s of years was unimportant, please say so.

I'm not saying it is unimportant. I guess it's a question of labels and semantics. In Orthodoxy, the hymns, scripture readings, litanies, veneration, all of it is prayer. So to me, the phrase "Good Friday Prayer" encompasses all the praying that takes place on Good Friday.

"Good Friday prayer" would mean that: "(the) Good Friday Prayer" means a specific prayer.

In the same vein, an article about Christ's teaching as presented in the gospels should of course include "Love thy neighbor as thyself, but it should also include the rest of his teaching. Wesley

But if you were writing an article about ""Love thy neighbor as thyself" you wouldn't include the rest of his teaching.

In addition to contextualizing the prayer that's there now (in which part of the liturgy does it come? by whom is it prayed, the main presider, a deacon, a reader? if there are multiple Roman Catholic services on Good Friday, in which service(s) is it used?), more general information about the liturgical prayers offered on this day would make this a very valuable article.

I think that should be put into an article on the Good Friday Service or Good Friday liturgy.

As I said earlier, I completely fail to see the distinction between these titles and "Good Friday Prayer". They're all the same thing, are they not? Wesley

No, they're not. The GFP is part of the liturgy, but not the whole of it. I've shifted your addition to the article on Good Friday, because I don't think it belongs here. Jacquerie27 16:36 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

I won't object immediately, but I would still like to see some reference made to a prayer with this title. If there's not a prayer with this title, then I think my addition does belong here, along with much more material concerning prayers specific to this day. Wesley 17:04 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

It isn't a title in the way "the Lord's Prayer" or "the Ave Maria" is, but it identifies a special prayer used on Good Friday. If you say the "Good Friday P/prayer" you mean the prayer on Good Friday directed against "unbelievers", principally the Jews. This is an Anglican version:

O merciful God, who hast made all men, and hatest nothing that thou hast made, nor wouldest [wantest] the death of any sinner, but rather that he be converted and live; Have mercy upon all Jews, Turks, Infidels, and Hereticks, and take from them all ignorance, hardness of heart, and contempt of thy Word; and so fetch them home, blessed Lord, to thy flock, that they may be saved among the remnant of the true Israelites, and be made one fold under one shepherd, Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, world without end. Amen.

Older editions of The Book of Common Prayer.

I think the phrase would have this meaning only if you were already talking about Christian-Jewish relationships, or Christian-non-Christian relationships. Without that context, Good Friday prayer means any and every prayer prayed on Good Friday, from the liturgical prayers that are written down to the less formal, more spontaneous prayers prayed by nearly all Christians on that day. Wesley

Yes, I agree completely, but the article isn't about "Good Friday prayer", it's about "the Good Friday Prayer" and it does specifically talk about the Jews. The definite article isn't used in titles: we talk of "the moon" in English, but it's listed in the WP under "wiki/Moon", which could theoretically mean any moon (Titan, Phobos, Ganymede, Miranda, etc, etc). But the article speaks of "the moon" and is about a particular moon, our moon. Similarly, this is listed as wiki/Good_Friday_Prayer", but the article uses "the GFP". For GF prayers in general, I suggest Good Friday Service or Good Friday liturgy. In the widest possible sense, "Good Friday prayer" would include prayers by Christians who weren't even aware it was Good Friday (e.g., Christians lost on a desert island or something that). Jacquerie27 19:32 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

Orthodox Church in America

I'll see what I can find based on the Orthodox Church in America prayer books; hopefully others will add info from the other Christian traditions. Wesley 03:27 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see whether the Orthodox Church has completely rewritten its Good Friday Prayer too, assuming it has a central prayer for this day -- I'm afraid I don't know much about Eastern Orthodoxy. Jacquerie27 08:19 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

I'm a relatively new convert and am still learning... I'm sure there isn't one prayer that is labeled "Good Friday Prayer" or "Holy Friday Prayer". Typically the "theme" of any given day is encapsulated in the troparion and kondakion for that day, two different hymns. I already listed one of the hymns in the article. On Holy Friday there are several troparia and kondakia. The litanies, or list of petitions, for Holy Friday are actually shorter than usual; normally they include a prayer for the unity of all Christians that is somewhat similar to the first paragraph of the pre-Vatacan II Catholic prayer in the article, but even that is not included in the litanies on Holy Friday. I'm pretty sure that they haven't had a drastic overhaul of the liturgy in quite a while, at least not that I've heard of; by quite a while I mean in the last several centuries, not counting translation to new languages.

I'm curious, is the prayer in the article actually labeled "the Good Friday Prayer" by the Roman Catholics? Which protestants use something similar, and label it this? I think it would have to be one of the more liturgical churches, like the Lutherans or Anglicans; most of the others don't attach specific prayers to specific days in quite the same way. Wesley

Anglicans certainly use it. Jacquerie27 16:36 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

Other Churches

There is no such thing as the prayer that Christian churches say on Good Friday. Until someone finds evidence that a non-Catholic church uses this prayer I will keep changing the first sentence back. I will look myself, also. Rmhermen 13:47 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Rmhermen. Have you tried Google? Or Altavista, also? Jacquerie27 16:36 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

If you have a specific reference, that would be helpful. I tried google, and found references to the "Good Friday prayer", but not to any prayer with the title "Good Friday Prayer". And yes, at least one reference mentioned the Church of England in connection with it. It seems to me after admittedly little googling that people refer to the "Good Friday prayer" when they mean this specific excerpt taken from the prayers said on that day. But I'm sure you've done much more thorough research, and I look forward to learning more. Wesley 17:04 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

Try http://www.bigbrother.net/~mugwump/FAITH/jcbib.html (search for "Good Friday"). Jacquerie27 18:48 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

That is another example of a reference to the "Good Friday prayer". It appears to be used as a casual label of one snippet of the prayers said on Good Friday. I don't think the Catholic liturgy calls it that, or assigns any title to it, though of course I'm guessing as I don't have the Catholic's text of Good Friday prayers. People refer to it in conversation when it is already understood that they are talking about Jewish Christian relations. Without that context, the title of this article is misleading. However, the substance of the article is very appropriate to retain. Wesley

I'd like to agree with Wesley that the title of this article is confusing. To Catholics (and Jews who over 50 who are old enough to remember this issue)

The issue is not forgotten by Jews, and shouldn't be. The Catholic church addressed them as "perfidious" for a very long time, and this prayer undoubtedly contributed to Christian anti-Semitism, and Christian anti-Semitism undoubtedly contributed to the holocaust.

-By your logic you could also say that Jewish Bolshevism and Weimar Germany cultural rot contributed to the holocaust. 192.40.24.4 (talk) 13:28, 4 October 2017 (UTC)Shandafurdie

the phrase Good Friday Prayer refers to a specific prayer in the Catholic liturgy. As such, one would expect this to be somehow reflected in the title. To non-Catholics, this phrase could refer to any prayers said specifically on Good Friday. I imagine that if we search through the Good Friday liturgy of Orthodox Chrisitians, and of the many Protestant Christian groups, we would find many different prayers to be said on good Friday. The Google test is indeterminate; many websites do refer to the "good Friday Prayer" as a name for the specific prayer discussed in this article, but many do not. As such, this makes me think about the naming of all articles about prayers. We need to create some sort of standard format. For prayers with unambiguous titles, where there is no chance for confusion, the common title of the prayer can be used. i.e. the Amidah (A Jewish prayer) or The Lord's Prayer (Christian). But for other prayers with English titles that may be ambiguous, how about some naming convention? Just for example: RK

Good Friday Prayer_(Catholic)

This article could discuss the specific prayer in this article.

But I've quoted from an Anglican version too, and there isn't a single Catholic "Good Friday prayer": I've shown how it was changed completely. Jacquerie27 19:32 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

Good Friday Prayer_(Orthodox)

This article could discuss prayers said by Orthodox Chrisitians on Good Friday, if any Orthodox Christians use a prayer with this title.

Good Friday (Christian liturgy)

This article could discus the entire subject of Christian liturgies on Good Friday.

Perhaps the Anglican version could go in Good Friday Prayer (Anglican). In both that one and the Catholic one, both old and new versions could be listed. Variations are already discussed this way in the Nicene Creed and Lord's Prayer articles if I recall correctly, although in those cases we don't have complete replacement with alternate text. Through googling, I also found a Catholic "Good Friday prayer" that was just a simple prayer to be said by children on that day, with no connection to the subject of this article. Wesley

Yes, the complete change (or reversal) in the prayer is an important part of the subject. Good Friday Prayer (Anglican) is fine, for a detailed discussion of Anglican changes (if someone supplies one), but I think this page should be used for general discussion of the most famous and historically interesting prayer used on GF, in Catholicism and elsewhere. Jacquerie27 07:30 May 3, 2003 (UTC)

The prayer is not called "Good Friday Prayer" in the Roman Missal. It's actually just called the "General Intercessions" in the Vatican II Missal, but it is the only case where the General Intercessions are given such a formal form. For much of the history of the Church, there were no General Intercessions except on this day, so it was, so to speak, a proper name for the prayer. Maybe General Intercessions for Good Friday? The article should at least mention that there are ten such intercessions, and that they pray for the Church, the pope, the clergy and laity of the Church, those preparing for baptism, the unity of Christians, the Jewish people, those who do not believe in Christ, those who do not believe in God, all in public office, and those in special need. -- Mpolo 07:37, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Fine, but we're calling it the "Good Friday Prayer for the Jews" because the article is not discussing the entire ""General Intercessions", just the part relevant to the Jews. You wanna discuss the entire "General intercession? Do it somewhere else; That's not what this article is about. Anyways, since this part of the prayer has no official title, I think we'll use the name academia has given it. Which would be (oddly enough) "Good Friday Prayer For The Jews." How about that? Meanwhile, I've changed the title to reflect the fact that this is a Catholic prayer since, as has been thoroughly discussed and documented here, it's not all of Christianity that uses this prayer.Allthenamesarealreadytaken (talk) 18:07, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

"Birkat Ha-Minim" section

The "Birkat Ha-Minim" seems a little out of place, just tacked on to the end of the article. It appears to be a Jewish perspective, so maybe we could incorporate it into a "Jewish response" section? Thanks--Geremia (talk) 21:46, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I certainly agree that this section appears "tacked on". It is borderline off-topic. I would certainly support moving it into another section. I would even support substantially eliminating it. Rwflammang (talk) 12:59, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

It does give the impression that the material is tacked on as a form of poor catholic apologetics that is so prevalent in Wikipedia articles "You are just as like us" kind of stuff rather than acknowledging the mistakes of the past. Taam (talk) 13:23, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Jewish rebuttal a bit much?

The statement that Jews do not suggest that their religion is best and that they do not seek to convert is a bit much IMO. Orthodox (and others) believe (correctly according to most Christian sources, as well) that they are God's chosen people. They do not seek to convert because only those of Jewish extraction can become Jews. Orthodox do not recognize conversions. Conservatives somewhat reluctantly. The point being that being Jewish is exclusively Jewish. All others can keep out! This is somewhat different than genially tolerating other religions as equal to one's own! For these reasons, the paragraph needs restructuring IMO. Student7 (talk) 21:55, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the rebuttal and the whole off-topic jewish prayer is out of place here. It should all be eliminated. It has no relation to the Good Friday liturgy. Rwflammang (talk) 14:18, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Anti-Defamation League and translation of phrase

I've removed (again) the unsourced claim that the translation "faithless" is incorrect. The translation of "perfidis" has been dealt with earlier in the article, at least twice, and both sections have sources. It's unnecessary to include another claim that "faithless" is wrong, especially one that states it as a fact when there is clearly disagreement on the translation. PaulGS (talk) 01:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Jewish Influence

Much has been written in this article about Jewish objections to Christian prayers. Do the Jews submit their religious rituals to scrutiny and criticism by non-Jewish groups? John Paul Parks (talk) 05:19, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you thought Catholics had "submitted" these antisemitic prayers to Jews for criticism? My, my my you over emphasise the locus of control of the Church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.249.85.17 (talk) 20:27, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Perfidiuos Jews version of prayer removed by Catholic apologists

Why are you guys trying to hide the fact that the prayer had the words perfidiuos Jews up until 1959? Someone removed that version of the prayer fr the article and I bet it was a Catholic, trying to hide the shameful traditions of the Church. Well, guess what? The cat is out of the bag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.249.84.113 (talk) 20:24, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Not only is that version in the article - and has been for years - it never had the words "perfidious Jews" in it. It had the words perfidis Judæis, and as explained in the article, perfidis is "unbelieving", not the "treacherous" meaning it has in English, PaulGS (talk) 02:21, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, your version of history is the apologists version, as I said. Regardless, it is no longer I'm the article, I pushed control f "let us pray for the perfifdis" and perfidious and it is not in there anymore. Why was it removed, and can we put it back? It should (and used to) read as follows: "Let us pray for the perfidious Jews: that the Lord our God may take away the veil from their hearts, that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. "Omnipotent and Eternal God, who does not even exclude Jewish perfidy from thy mercy: hear our prayers which we offer for the blindness of that people, that, having recognized the light of thy truth, which is Christ, they may come out of their darkness, Through Jesus Christ our Lord . . ." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.91.107.145 (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Origins

Are vaguely referenced "...liturgy of the Tridentine Mass, which dates back to 1570." The should be made clear in lead/introduction. Naytz (talk) 04:17, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

traditional prayer

Changed to perfidious to match the reference. Please stop trying to hide that Catholics referred to them as perfidious. I see from the history that catholic apologists have been trying to do so, and this needs to stop immediately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.228.78.67 (talk) 22:19, 6 June 2015 (UTC) '

Source for "perfidious"? PaulGS (talk) 02:33, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Spanish-speaking community

Did they pray this in spanish? I'm pretty sure most catholic older chileans don't even know this prayer existed. What about other latinamerican countries? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Korosuke (talk • contribs) 07:17, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

it was the same for everybody up until Vatican II (before then mass was in Latin for everybody). The spanish equivalent to ICEL is here. perhaps someone who speak spanish can find the missal there and see what it says now. Jytdog (talk) 09:43, 6 February 2017 (UTC)