Talk:Heart-Shaped Box

Heart-Shaped Box has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
March 18, 2010	Good article nominee	Listed

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A class

Something can only be a-class if its a better than average GA. Andman8 22:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I submit that the first paragraph is nonsense - All Apologies was released well before Kurt topped himself... ? Morwen - Talk 21:02, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Resource

Can we get a resource for the original title? -- LGagnon 05:28, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

-5cott- Does anyone else think that it is strange that the article makes reference to Cobain interview from 1995, one year AFTER he died?

Accolades

I thought the following Heart-Shaped Box things would go nicely here: Accolades Rolling Stone magazine Critics Pick Singles #3 (1993) Kerrang! magazine "100 Greatest Rock Tracks Ever" #10 (1999) Kerrang! magazine "100 Greatest Singles of all Time" #32 (2002)

Embryonic ???

Why is this word 'embryonic' being used to describe the demo version of Heart-Shaped Box ? Is it supposed to be some sort of 'pun' like the word 'embryo' to coincide with the 'In Utero' album theme of birth ?

Meaning

I think there's much more that can be said about the meaning of this song and especially the video. Mention should be made of the opening, where the three seem to be on a death watch, and the sharp contrast with the fetuses, as a birth-death dichotomy. It seems like there's much more here, as the video has a kind of cathartic effect. Who is dying at the death watch? Christ? That symbolism is there too. I might do some research and see what I can add that's not my own guessing. Then again, it may just be a bunch of random crap. --DanielCD 20:16, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Charts

According to several sites on the internet, including these: [1],[2],

[3], [4]

Nirvana's 'Heart-Shaped Box was kicked off the Australian Alternative Music Charts No.1 spot by Powderfinger's Reap What You Sow, Tranfusion EP.

Germany [[5]]

The article states that Heart Shaped Box failed to make the Billboard Hot 100. This is somewhat of an unfair statement because this was only a radio single in America and wasn't even eligible for the Hot 100. At the time an actual single had to be released in stores for a single to count on the Billboard Hot 100. Allaplgies (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

girl info

any info about that girl on the video? i mean there is info about the baby from the nevermind's cover so i think it would be intersting to know something about that girl

Patti Smith

For some reason, multiple knowledgable people have told me that this song was covered by Nirvana and was originally done by Patti Smith. Perhaps a repudiation of this myth is needed. -- 131.230.135.20

If you can't find a legit source that claims this, don't add it. -- LGagnon 04:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Suicide note

One of the major POV problems with Kurt Cobain related articles is the issue of his death. It has been decided that, despite the official record being suicide, that Wikipedia hould not claim that it definitely was in his article, as that is pushing one POV that there is some evidence against. Likewise, I think this article should reword the claim that the "suicide" note was in fact such a note (see Kurt's article to understand why), if at least to keep Wikipedia's articles involving his death consistent with each other's NPOV status. -- LGagnon 19:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Treatment" vs. "Variation"

I propose changing the word "variation" back to "treatment." I believe "treatment" is the proper term in this case - sort of like "film treatment," except with a music video. A written plan for the video.

To me, "variation" has a totally different meaning, it implies a different version of the actual video.

References

CAn the people adding references actually connect them to something in the article? References should be added as part of citations, not to sit there and let the reader guess what it goes with. -- LGagnon 03:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article states that Heart Shaped Box failed to make the Billboard Hot 100. This is somewhat of an unfair statement because this was only a radio single in America and wasn't even eligible for the Hot 100. At the time an actual single had to be released in stores for a single to count on the Billboard Hot 100. Allaplgies (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other Version of the Song

Evanescense has their own version of "Heart Shaped Box". Same lyrics, differant sound. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.205.35 (talk) 17:34, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other Version of the Song

There's lots of fucking vandalism here. Somebody proffread! (166.205.9.218 (talk) 03:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Evanescense redid the song "Heart Shaped Box". Same exact lyrics, with a differant style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.205.35 (talk) 17:31, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lovedrug has released a version as well.70.96.106.34 (talk) 22:59, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Heart-Shaped Box/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: CrowzRSA 23:53, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (No OR):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

Comments:

Line 2, In Utero should have commas surrounding it (i.e. ,In Utero,)
Fixed. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Notes should not be "==Notes==," rather, "===Notes==="

"Notes" sections aren't required to be subsections of larger sections. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:45, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but it would look more appropriate since their is a reference section containing information needed in the Notes section. CrowzRSA ^{00:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)}[reply]

"Cobain forgot about the song for a while, but began working on it again when he and his wife Courtney Love moved to a house in the Hollywood Hills" (Origin and recording), really doesn't sound correct.

What precisely sounds awkward about it? WesleyDodds (talk) 04:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well if it said something like "The song was written by Cobain, but was forgotten. Later he and his wife Courtney Love moved to a house in the Hollywood Hills, where they began working on the song again." CrowzRSA ^{22:13, 4 March 2010 (UTC)}[reply]

Rereading the sentence in conjuction with the one preceeding it, the meaning seems pretty clear. WesleyDodds (talk) 13:21, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Track listing," probably would look better and more organized if you followed this guide.
The tracklist template is optional and is only recommended for complicated tracklists. I personally have always found it to be unnecessarily complex. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ISBN 0-8264-1776-3 Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: checksum isn't valid.

I was pretty sure that was correct, but a google search says there's a zero at the end instead of a 3. I'll check the book again soon. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:52, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By any chance is it ISBN 0-8264-1776-0 ? CrowzRSA ^{21:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)}[reply]

ISBN number is corrected now. WesleyDodds (talk) 13:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC

Specific Comments

Lead

Origin and recording

Perhaps add <ref name="Azerrad, p. 325"> to somewhere else in the 5th paragraph (This would just make the paragraph look more reliable to readers)
(Par 3) Add link to demo (demo → [[Demo (music)|demo]]
(Par 3) Add link to vocals (vocals → [[Singing|vocals]]
(Par 3) Add link to bass (bass → [[Bass Guitar|bass]]
(Par 3) Add link to guitar solo (guitar solo → [[guitar solo]]) (mabye)

Good job on section: probably add one or two more sections tomorrow. CrowzRSA ^{22:14, 8 March 2010 (UTC)}[reply]

I linked "demo" but not the others because they are common terms that don't require Wikilinks. I see nothing wrong with the placement of the citation. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:31, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Composition and lyrics

(Par 2) "the song actually appeared to be about Courtney Love." add in "to be about his wife, Courtney Love."

Love is already introduced in the article, and thus does not require a modifier. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Par 2) Add link to Charles Cross (Charles Cross → Charles Cross)

His name is already linked in the previous section. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Par 2) "Hey/Wait/I've," mabye these should appear "Hey/ Wait/ I've" or something. I'm not sure about this.

There's no specified way for quoting lyrics Wikipedia. However, this is how I've always written them out in articles. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Par 2) Is "perceived by the media."a quote from the reference, because if it is it should be in quotes...

CrowzRSA ^{21:51, 10 March 2010 (UTC)}[reply]
It's not a direct quote, it's a summary of what Cobain said. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Release

Is the whole first half of the paragraph all mentioned in "Nirvana Set has Smell of Success"?

Yep. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"in early September 1993." maybe there should be an "of" between September and 1993.

No, this is appropriate. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Add link to Billboard (I see it in the lead, but Modern Rock Tracks is too and it has a link.

Simply removed the Modern Rock Tracks link for consistency. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe add how long the album was on the chart somewhere in the paragraph.

There's no information available on this by reliable sources. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"A single of the song was released" doesn't sound right at all. Change it to something like "The song was released as a single in the..."

CrowzRSA ^{21:51, 10 March 2010 (UTC)}[reply]
I phrased it this way so it wouldn't start out the exact same way the sentence before it did. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

March 13th comments

These comments regard coverage of what I haven't given comments on. After these are responded to, it may be GA. I will finalize after all comments are resolved

The In Utero extra track list in the infobox should be "studio," not "single"

Fixed. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The lead doesn't say anything about the music video, other than it's director's name and about it's reception.

It's an adequate summary per lead section guidelines. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"...received much American radio airplay.." mabye this would sound better "...received adequate airplay in the US..."

"Adequate" doesn't correllate with the clause after it, which mentions it topped the Modern Rock chart. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Chart DOES meet WP:CHARTS
The cover art has a white gash in the bottom left corner, that should be fixed (here is the complete image [6] (image resolution is currently good though)

I know nothing about handling images on Wikipedia, so I have no idea how to upload a new version. Personally, the mark is almost unnoticeable to me, and didn't see it until you pointed it out.

I fixed it. CrowzRSA ^{16:52, 14 March 2010 (UTC)}[reply]

WesleyDodds (talk) 11:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The In Utero page says the songs length is 4:41, this says 4:39, they should probably be identicle.

I'm trying to find my CD single of "Heart-Shaped Box" to see if it lists the track time. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:36, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah It does say 4:39

Mabye this should be in the external links

You can add it if you feel it's warranted. I have no opinion either way. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

CrowzRSA ^{23:46, 13 March 2010 (UTC)}[reply]

Great job on the article, especially with finding references for everything. CrowzRSA ^{21:12, 18 March 2010 (UTC)}[reply]

Courtney Love Twitter

"You do know the song is about my vagina, right?"

"Throw down your umbilical noose so I can climb right back..."

"Some of the lyrics about my vagina, I contributed."

"So, umm, next time you sing it, think about my vagina, will you? Lol."

The tweets were later deleted.

I was wondering if anyone else noticed that. Rolling Stone [7] and Stereogum[8] reported on it. Might be notable, considering the article currently mentions nothing about Miss Love's vagina. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 10:04, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Putting it lightly, Courtney is known for making outrageous statements that have tenuous factual basis. In any event, Kurt Cobain's explanation for what the song is cited in the article, and it has nothing to do with vaginas (even if he did have a penchant for medical imagery). WesleyDodds (talk) 11:44, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian Singles Chart

Until the year 2000 the official Canadian Singles Chart was compiled by RPM (magazine). According to the Wikipedia guidelines at Wikipedia:Record charts#Recommended charts, the archives for the RPM singles found here: [9] are recommended. Heart-Shaped Box charted at number 17 and can be found in the archives here: [10]. I suggest that we add it to the chart table.QuintusPetillius (talk) 16:57, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My question is is there a more definitive source for Canadian chart positions? The problem with citing a chart from an individual issue of RPM is that it shows chart positions only up to a given week, with no indication if there was a peak afterward. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:03, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting point. However the source used is included in Wikipedia:Record charts#Recommended charts, and I think it is normally assumed that the peak chart position is as given in the source. I am not bothered either way. If we could find a source which states the actual peak then that would be better.mjgm84 (talk) 07:51, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just because it's listed as a recommend chart doesn't mean we are bound to use it. After all, it would be perfectly acceptable if it was citing a number-one chart position, because you can't get any higher. But anything else? That's problematic. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the Canadian listing from the article until a better source can be found.mjgm84 (talk) 14:56, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lawsuit

The article says "After the video's release, Kevin Kerslake sued Nirvana, alleging copyright infringement. The case was settled out of court." Is there any further information on this, maybe what his reasons were or something? I realize it's sourced but the source is not readily available, and being unfamiliar with this story I haven't managed to find out. I did find some mention of the suit in quotes from Kerslake, but as those were after the fact he didn't go into any more detail than remarking on its impact on his relationship with the band. Rifter0x0000 (talk) 13:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]