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Bytwerk's implied Catholicism

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@Beyond My Ken: Given that Bytwerk merely implied in his biography on Streicher that he was Catholic is not proof necessarily, so I am not entirely disputing your revert. However, consider the following observations taken directly from the book: Besides the statement, "The rural village in which Streicher grew up was strongly Catholic," (p. 2) one reads the following: "As a teacher Streicher was expected to attend to the spiritual as well as to the intellectual development of his pupils. Particularly in the small towns in which he taught, the local priest often had supervisory authority over the schoolmaster. Now, Streicher was never to be a man who easily accepted interference in his affairs, and his childhood had not left him a loyal Catholic. In July 1904 he decided to change the time at which the Sunday school (for which the schoolmaster was also responsible) met, against the wishes of the parish priest. Having other complaints against the troublesome nineteen-year-old as well, the priest made a formal complaint to Streicher's superiors. The altercation did Streicher's career no harm, for he soon after received more permanent teaching assignments." (p. 3)

Overseeing "spiritual development" and changing the time of Sunday school make it abundantly clear that this is a church-related school. Since, as Bytwerk relates earlier on the same page that in 1904 Streicher had "taught in six Bavarian villages within seven months," (p. 3) the likelihood of him being allowed to teach in these schools and not being a Catholic are nearly next to none. Not exactly sure why you outright removed verbatim quotes, unless you thought they too strongly supported the idea that he was in fact a Catholic. BTW - "not a loyal Catholic" also strongly suggests he was after all, at least at that time, a practicing Catholic.--Obenritter (talk) 23:01, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but it's all kinda circumstantial and requires us to read between the lines. Any or all of this info could be in the article, but I still don't think it justifies calling him "Catholic" in the infobox, that's a declarative statement that requires, I think, a directly supporting citation. If he was indeed Catholic, I would imagine that such a reference would be out there somewhere. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:13, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I've not seen anything definitive that I can recall, even from German sources. Because he later wrote anti-Catholic literature as well as anti-Semitic (for which he is better known), perhaps the historians have outright overlooked any of his prior education or beliefs. Until we can find something more definitive, you're right that it's otherwise declarative without full substantiation. I pinged Dr. Bytwerk about it to see if he has any additional insights. He may even know of a source that we can use. --Obenritter (talk) 23:24, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:34, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I know no evidence that Streicher was Catholic by belief or practice after his early years. The schools he taught at were not church schools. German schools at the time, and even today, can include religious instruction in the public schools. I'll dig into my sources a little more when time allows.

And I have now done that. The best biography of Streicher is Daniel Roos, “Julius Streicher und ‘Der Stürmer’ 1923-1945 (Paderborn: Ferdinand Schöningh, 2014). My book isn’t a biography of Streicher, although it does include some biographical material since at the time I wrote it there was little in English on his life. Roos’s biographical research is considerably more detailed than mine and he had access to sources that I did not. Discussing Streicher’s conflicts with church supervision of local schools, Roos writes: “Streicher was ready very early to oppose clerical supervision of teachers (p. 35).” He makes no mention of Streicher’s involvement in religious activities after his arrival in Nuremberg in 1909. In my own work, I found numerous attacks on the Catholic Church in Streicher’s writing and nothing to suggest he retained any personal faith.
My take is that, like Hitler and Goebbels, Streicher had long-since left the Catholicism of his youth by the time he became politically active.Bytwerk (talk) 21:56, 13 January 2021 (UTC)Bytwerk (talk) 18:58, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, your due diligence is appreciated. If you happen to come across a citation confirming Streicher's Catholicism (or otherwise) please drop a note here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:57, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Bytwerk: Thanks Dr. Bytwerk, that helped clear this up. @Beyond My Ken: Way to trust your instincts. --Obenritter (talk) 00:36, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's not up to non RCs (like myself) to decide whether someone belongs to that faith. As Streicher, like many of of the nazi leadership including Hitler, Himmler, Goebells etc., was never excommunicated by the pope, he would be considered by the vatican authorities to be a catholic, regardless of statements or behaviour, even in the after life they believe in. Burnsonian (talk) 10:03, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Our policy is that a subject's religious beliefs have to be affirmed by the subject, or commented on by recognized scholarly experts. How the Vatican considered Streicher is perhaps a matter of small interest, but it's not relevant to how we list his religious beliefs in the infobox. Personally, I know a number of people who were baptized, confirmed and raised as Roman Catholics who have (as they say) "lapsed", and no longer consider themselves to be Catholic. None of them - to my knowledge - was every excommunicated, so presumably the Vatican would still count them in their flock, but because they don't call themselves Catholics, we would not identify them as such if we had articles on them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:50, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Streicher's middle name

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An IP is attempting to add the the middle name "Sebastian" to the lede sentence. I have several concerns about this:

  • IP at first cited de.wiki, which indeed does show the middle name "Sebastian", without a source. Of course, de.wiki, just like en.wiki, is not a reliable source, so I reverted.
  • The IP commented on my talk page, [1] leaving a link to a German-language source, which does indeed use "Julius Sebastian Streicher". However, in that source, and in other German-language sources that I investigated, the name seems always to be used in the context of Streicher as a youth. I don't read German, so I can't claim to have gotten the full context of what was written, but I have yet to see a mention of "Julius Sebastian Streicher" which appears to be referring to the man as an adult. This makes me wonder whether "Sebastian" was a name that he dropped the use of (perhaps in a revolt against religion, Sebastian being a saint's name?). In any case, I think it needs further scrutiny.
  • I have yet a reference to "Julius Sebastian Streicher" in an English-language reference, again raising doubts in my mind about the use of this name.

If someone has any additional information about this, or could read the German sources and report as to what, exactly, they say about "Sebatsian", that would be helpful.

Google Books: [2]

Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:05, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am German, but that did not help me. The only "Sebastian" in the google books links are either between Julius and Streicher, or other people named Sebastian. So, there is no hint in the books that he dropped the second name at any time. It is weird that the English-language sources do not mention the second name, as second names are taken more seriously in America, possibly because disambiguation is more important in a larger population, but maybe exactly that is the reason: Only very persnickety Germans - such as Wikipedia editors - would mention any second names not used by their bearers in everyday life, and there is no other Julius Streicher of similar notoriety (or similar fame, for that matter), so most German-language sources, and therefore the English-language sources based on them, would just ignore the second name.
So, no big deal. Just add the Sebastian based on the German-language sources. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:35, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Claims of abuse by Allied soldiers

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"During his trial, Streicher claimed that he had been mistreated by Allied soldiers after his capture." - He did indeed say so, when he was on trial. But I don't recall that this in anyway was disproven or discredited during the trial by the prosecution. The mistreatments were mostly humiliations in a rather mean way not severe injuries. If that was deliberate (as to prime him for the trial) is of course an open question. Streicher's description of the details can't be found in the transcripts, but can be found in an audio-recording thereof (From 22min onward): https://archive.org/details/JuliusStreicherVerteidigungsrede --105.8.7.22 (talk) 11:08, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:37, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apparent last words

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"Joseph Kingsbury-Smith... said in his filed report that after the hood descended over Streicher's head, he also apparently said "Adele, meine liebe Frau!" ("Adele, my dear wife!")."

Why the "apparently"? Kingsbury-Smith was an eye witness and clearly writes:

"When the black hood was raised over his head, Streicher's muffled voice could be heard to say, 'Adele, my dear wife.'" (Source: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/NurembergNews10_16_46.html )

Perhaps this is an unreliable account, but "apparently" is nonsense. 2A02:AA1:1018:BA8C:F8D2:3D00:A320:A2A0 (talk) 20:24, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and fixed. Thanks. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:27, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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