Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of This American Life episodes
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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was KEEP.
The votes were 8 keep, 7 delete. dbenbenn | talk 22:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't oppose having useful content in this article, but currently it has existed for nearly a year and it contains absolutely nothing that the official Main Show Archive does not. And, if that page ever goes down, so will all of the links in this article... Is there any reason to keep this? ~leif ☺ HELO 22:35, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
- Comment: This article is different from the Main Show Archive in one important aspect: it is a listing of episodes (organized by episode number), where as the Show Archive is a listing of shows (organized by date and including repeated episodes). For example, the Show Archive links to Episode 214 "Family Physics" three times because it aired three times, whereas our article lists the episode just once. --MarkSweep 06:54, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Update: I've removed all external links except for one general link to the official archive page. I suggest that further discussion about which links, if any, to include take place on the article's talk page. --MarkSweep 02:43, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. Fancruft perhaps, but not more so than in most other cases. If the official page ever moves, we can update all the links here with a simple AWK script (that's how the links were created in the first place). If the official page ever disappears, we will still have a list of episodes as a memento. Another thing: if you say that you "wouldn't oppose having useful content" here, that suggests to me that you think the topic is indeed encyclopedic, and should be expanded rather than deleted. --MarkSweep 01:11, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Delete. Utterly pointless duplication of the program's own archive page. And if you could explain, without resorting to logic-chopping, what possible useful content that could be added here that wouldn't fit in This American Life I'd be grateful. --Calton 02:05, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Pointless duplication was not a deletion criterion last time I checked. You might have a point that list of This American Life episodes could be merged with This American Life, but you could say the same about virtually every other article in Category:Lists of television series episodes – it's almost always possible to make a case for why "list of FOO episodes" should be merged into "FOO". As for useful content, it would be helpful to cross-reference the episode list with contributor articles like David Sedaris, Sarah Vowell, etc. The whole point is that this list can be properly wikified and expanded by us, whereas the official archive page cannot. --MarkSweep 03:02, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Check [1]What Wikipedia is not--clearly this qualifies. Niteowlneils 19:09, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- You mean a stripped-down, automated, wholly unnecessary duplication of an existing website's content shouldn't be considered grounds for deletion? Hell, it borders on outright copyright violation.
You might have a point that list of This American Life episodes could be merged with This American Life. That was precisely NOT my point. I repeat, what "useful content" could be added to the episode list that would NOT belong in the main article (or that of the contributors)? Answer: none.
Do you have a point you can make without distorting people's positions? --Calton 05:31, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)- First, I'm not in the business of distorting anyone's position. Your prior point was that anything worth adding to this article could equally well be added to the This American Life article. That suggests to me that you're thinking any content (current or future) worth preserving could be merged into the main article. Like I said before, if there is a point here, it would apply essentially unchanged to a lot of other episode lists. Second, it's hardly a copyright violation, as one cannot claim copyright on a mere list of facts, which includes lists such as this, phone directories, etc. Also, if you check the history of this page, you'll see that it was cleary not created as a pared down version of the official archive page. I agree that this article should be expanded, which would make it even less of a copyright violation, if it ever was one. Third, I maintain that useful content can indeed be added here: we can provide content summaries and link them with other articles. In fact, I've just done so for a few episodes I remember off the top of my head. Now when you go to Trail of Tears and click on What links here, you'll be directed to List of This American Life episodes among other articles. This clearly cannot be done on the off-site official archive, and it could only be done in the main article This American Life if that included/transcluded the content from list of This American Life episodes, hence my first point. --MarkSweep 06:49, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- First, I'm not in the business of distorting anyone's position So you're an amateur, then?
- That suggests to me... Perhaps you should stick to what I wrote and not what you imagine I wrote.
- Pointless duplication was not a deletion criterion last time I checked. That suggests to me that you're not up on Wikipedia policy. You might want to read this, Perry Mason: Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files
- This clearly cannot be done on the off-site official archive. Of course not. What you should be doing is the other way around: add the TAL link to the Trail of Tears article, if you think it's relevant. Otherwise, that suggests to me you think users are supposed to go to the "What Links Here" button, spot the List of This American Life episodes link among all the others, and go to that page and search for the appropriate link. It's so wrong-headed, that suggests to me you're trying to justify the article with some ginned-up "content." --Calton 09:18, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- First, I'm not in the business of distorting anyone's position. Your prior point was that anything worth adding to this article could equally well be added to the This American Life article. That suggests to me that you're thinking any content (current or future) worth preserving could be merged into the main article. Like I said before, if there is a point here, it would apply essentially unchanged to a lot of other episode lists. Second, it's hardly a copyright violation, as one cannot claim copyright on a mere list of facts, which includes lists such as this, phone directories, etc. Also, if you check the history of this page, you'll see that it was cleary not created as a pared down version of the official archive page. I agree that this article should be expanded, which would make it even less of a copyright violation, if it ever was one. Third, I maintain that useful content can indeed be added here: we can provide content summaries and link them with other articles. In fact, I've just done so for a few episodes I remember off the top of my head. Now when you go to Trail of Tears and click on What links here, you'll be directed to List of This American Life episodes among other articles. This clearly cannot be done on the off-site official archive, and it could only be done in the main article This American Life if that included/transcluded the content from list of This American Life episodes, hence my first point. --MarkSweep 06:49, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- There clearly can be content here that is not found on the Main Show Archive. For example, several episodes or stories have won radio journalism awards. I've added a few of those. --MarkSweep 00:35, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- There should be a list of the awards the show has won in the main article. ~leif ☺ HELO 04:03, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
- Pointless duplication was not a deletion criterion last time I checked. You might have a point that list of This American Life episodes could be merged with This American Life, but you could say the same about virtually every other article in Category:Lists of television series episodes – it's almost always possible to make a case for why "list of FOO episodes" should be merged into "FOO". As for useful content, it would be helpful to cross-reference the episode list with contributor articles like David Sedaris, Sarah Vowell, etc. The whole point is that this list can be properly wikified and expanded by us, whereas the official archive page cannot. --MarkSweep 03:02, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, agreeing with MarkSweep. Samaritan 04:18, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Delete. See [2]--"Wikipedia articles are not: 1. Mere collections of external links." IMHO, votes from people who often make strong personal attacks on VfD should NOT count. Niteowlneils 19:09, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Are you serious? If so, are you volunteering to be the supreme arbiter of which comments do or don't qualify enough as "strong personal attacks" to disqualify a voter? IMHO, votes from people who suggest other peoples' votes shouldn't count should also NOT count, so there. ~leif ☺ HELO 04:03, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
- Delete, potential for duplicate content, for starters. Wyss 22:28, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Where exactly do you see that potential? We don't have any articles on individual episodes, so the only other target would be the This American Life article itself, which explicitly points to this list. --MarkSweep 00:42, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Delete. Just a repository of external links, which is what wikipedia is not. -R. fiend 23:34, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- So if we got rid of the external links to make it look more like list of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles episodes (2003 series), would that be better? --MarkSweep 23:55, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I listen to (and love) this show. This is the best show NPR airs in my area. This list is pointless, though. Delete. Could be done with catagories if the shows exist, however. humblefool® 00:17, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Lists are distinct from categories. "Lists have a substantial advantage over categories and series boxes in that they can be annotated. A list can include items that do not yet have an article, and can also show series or groups where the items would be completely separate on the category page." Categories only make sense if there are articles, but it makes no sense to create a separate article for each episode. If we did that, we would end up with something like list of Frasier episodes, which is to a large extent a collection of red links. --MarkSweep 00:35, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Keep but remove most/all external links. -Sean Curtin 00:24, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
- delete. Yuckfoo 01:20, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, but with reservations. The show is notable and the article has potential but as the list mostly contains external links these are going to have to be removed. Perhaps just write a short description on each show instead in their place. Megan1967 02:21, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Abstain: After the recent updates, the article does now actually have some content that is not on the Main Show Archive page. To the admin who counts this VfD: Please do not count my nomination as a vote to delete. ~leif ☺ HELO 04:03, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
- Keep since update. Kappa 10:17, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Delete. This is just a list of nearly 300 links to pages on a single other web-site, americanlife.org. If you removed all those links, all that would be left would be a short blurb about some of the 2004 episodes. Articles that are essentially lists of links to other web-sites are against Wikipedia policy, and even if they weren't, this so-called article can and should be replaced by a single sentence in the "External references" section of This American Life, letting people know that they can find information about particular episodes on americanlife.org. --BM 16:21, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- So would you prefer it if we got rid of the external links (which are useful content, IMO) to make it look more like list of Curb Your Enthusiasm episodes or list of Seinfeld episodes? --MarkSweep 19:05, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- At present, it is 95% a violation of Wikipedia policy (being a list of external links), and 5% a useless list of blurbs about some of the 2004 shows. Removing the external links would make it 100% a useless list of blurbs about the shows -- so it is difficult to call that an improvement. The solution is to delete the article, as I said before.
- So why don't we remove all episode lists? The same point applies to virtually all of them. And check the present state, the external links are gone. --MarkSweep 20:43, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Good idea. Why don't we start with the Star Trek episode lists, or even better the episode articles. Put one of them up for a VfD; you'll have my support 1000%. --BM 03:49, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Apples and oranges -- the TAL Archive Page is an official, well, archive page. Care to point to any official TV episode archive pages? --Calton 02:25, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- So why don't we remove all episode lists? The same point applies to virtually all of them. And check the present state, the external links are gone. --MarkSweep 20:43, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- At present, it is 95% a violation of Wikipedia policy (being a list of external links), and 5% a useless list of blurbs about some of the 2004 shows. Removing the external links would make it 100% a useless list of blurbs about the shows -- so it is difficult to call that an improvement. The solution is to delete the article, as I said before.
- So would you prefer it if we got rid of the external links (which are useful content, IMO) to make it look more like list of Curb Your Enthusiasm episodes or list of Seinfeld episodes? --MarkSweep 19:05, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Keep -Redjar 14:35, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Keep Notable enough as a list. At worse, Merge it. -CunningLinguist 23:37, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.